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BFletch
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Washington, DC
Jan 2002
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by cgaydos
I see the patch has been removed from the website. Probably due to several bugs. ... |
They have indeed removed the patch from the infogrames server. I downloaded it, but haven't installed. The removal worries me a bit that installing it will be a problem.
What's the consensus - better before or after?
Thanks!
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Libertarian
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
would you read a 200-post thread of personal attacks, criticism, flames and huge egos just to get those 3-4 posts of actual usefull feedback? would even try? i know i couldnt  |
Well, you've changed the subject, but let's deal with the point you've raised. I understand that you're a very emotional person, you shoot from the hip, and you certainly are in a position where you have a vested interest in maintaining good relations with Firaxis. It is understandable that you might make certain minor ethical compromises in order to safeguard those relations.
But to categorically dismiss every appeal to reason as a personal attack, a flame, or an egotistical diatribe is beyond the pall. You're not — at least not in every case — dealing with idiots here. We are not the papier mache dolls that you've constructed in your head. We, too, are creatures who have feelings of our own. If, on the one hand, you defend the feelings of those who serve one vested interest, you at least ought to make a pretense at defending the feelings of those who serve another.
It might not have occured to you that those of us who bring criticism to the table are as useful to your forum as those who bring nothing but praise. I'm hoping that somewhere deep within you is the capacity to receive what I'm saying with the right frame of mind, namely, that it is in your own self-interest to mitigate the relations between the fans and Firaxis. What you are doing instead is further alienating us by virtue of your power as owner of Apolyton.
No one would defend your right more than I to run the site however you see fit. It is your property, and therefore all rights with respect to it accrue to you. But while you seem to have a good grasp of human nature when it comes to Firaxis employees, you seem to have very little when it comes to Apolyton members. A mediator stands between two parties as a conciliator and facilitator, not as a sympathiser or redactor on behalf of either party.
What I'm trying to say is that if you would search the hearts of critics with the same eye that you search the hearts of Firaxians, you would find the same kinds of human beings, sharing the common goal of making the game a better game. You need to understand that you might actually be contributing to the escalation of criticism to flame by virtue of the fact that you are wedging yourself into the fray as a powerful defender of the status quo.
It is human nature to respond to disrespect and dismissal with renewed and fortified volition. You stand in the unique position of having a golden opportunity to foster a community wherein dialog is insightful rather than inciteful. The level of intelligence and potential discourse at Apolyton is higher than at any other fansite. It will be your own downfall if you destroy that by allowing yourself to fall into thoughtless emotional hemorrhaging.
There is a reason that moderating is rooted in the word moderate. You do not restore balance by taking one side against the other; you restore balance by recognizing the merits in both sides. This is because both sides are of equal weight intrinsically. The best way that you can discourage flames toward Firaxis is not to trivialize the criticisms that led to the flames. That is merely tantamount to blowing on the fire. The best way to discourage flames toward Firaxis is to encourage Firaxis to respond — before the complaint has escalated.
If it is too difficult for Firaxis to do, then that is your fault because it means that you have not provided the context to make it easy for them. Take it upon yourself to act as advocate for both your community and your benefactors. Act as facilitator. Stop dismissing perfectly intelligent people as babblers and morons. Stop allowing supporters to get away with calling people "commie c*cksuckers". Stop behaving like the pointman for Firaxis. And start trying to help both the community and Firaxis to get answers.
I have no idea how you might interpret this post; emotional people can be hard to predict. I can hope only that I've caught you in a moment of conciliation and forgiveness, and that you will interpret this as a genuine gesture of goodwill and offer of what I believe to be good advice that might edify you. There's an awful lot of potential here at Apolyton. Whether that will be squandered or nurtured is entirely up to you.
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Libertarian
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I'll try.
When you write "would you read a 200-post thread of personal attacks, criticism, flames and huge egos just to get those 3-4 posts of actual usefull feedback?", the implication is that 99.985% of posts were personal attacks, flames, or egotistical diatribes. Perhaps I should have said "nearly every" and not "every".
Unfortunately, if that's all you took from my post, I apologize for having wasted your time.
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Libertarian
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quote:
no but it seems that you based your whole analysis plus what seemed like a feeling of being personally insulted on that comment |
I suppose it would, wouldn't it? Few of us are capable of stepping outside our little box. All the best to you, Mark.
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woody
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
please explain me were i did that. |
Mark, don't bother responding to Lib. He's an egotistical jerk, who needs to have his deflated self-esteem pumped up by people responding to his inane personal attacks. You're only encouraging him. Everyone knows he's a hypocrit. If people would just ignore him, maybe he'll go away.
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Libertarian
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Something tells me that you'll get away with that violation of board policy (e.g., posting insults). Either it might be rationalized that you did not mean it toward me personally, since Lib might have refered to a poster called "Liberal", or else it might be said that "hypocrit" is not a word at all, and "jerk" is a soda fountain worker.
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Libertarian
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Incidentally, since "Sh*ggy" had to change his username because it was a bad word somewhere, you might ask someone what a woody is in America.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:17
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woody: Your nutz. Lib is one of the more insightful people around here. Mark, and others, listen to him because he says things worth listening to. Even me. Yes, he has a hightened sense of self. So do a lot of people. Are you perfect?
Mark: Lib said some valuable things in his *discourse on relations.* I agree with some of them. Moderation requires balance. I hesitate a great deal in saying the following, however, your toleration of pure trollers may be leading you to more of a bunker defensivness than would be required if they were not given so much leash. Also, I am sure that you do what you can to represent us, the civvers, to the developers. No one is in a position like yours, so nobody could do it better.
Lib: Give Mark some time and some slack. You are right. Mark has some very real and strong felt feelings on the line.
Email might be a good idea.
Salve
Last edited by notyoueither on 17-02-2002 at 17:09
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Libertarian
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Okay, Salve. Your advice makes sense. I'll back away. Thank you.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:17
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Hi ,
Infogrames , grrrrrr , they still are running the old 1.16 patch as a download , ..............;
by the way , what is the story with the editor parch , i tried to run , got an error , anyone got some info on this ,.....?
hmmm , well , just something i like to say , some people are open to critic('s) some are not , and hum , i seems that a guy from Greece nows how to run a server , of course some people may say and/or suggest that that guy from Greece is getting money from it , well at least he does his job , regardless if he is payed or not , and by the way , who would not like to earn some money , some people are just upset because they are not getting it , pfffffff , poor guys/girls !
hey Mark G , keep it up , ya doing a great job !
now a Q , i like to get the map's that come with game , their scenario's in to the "edit" , however firaxis blocked it somehow , anyone with some ideas for an override ?
Q , when you are making a huge map , 256x256 , any way to get an overview on your screen , like the "z" in the game ?
Q, about that cheat , okay lets say ya use it , is there some way, to close it off , and go on again , ??????
Have a nice day , David 
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Phalanx2000
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Dallas Tejas
Dec 2000
time: 05:17
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the patch is gone from the FTP... what gives? Buggy?
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paulmagusnet
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Boulder Creek,CA,USA
Nov 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
yes, but of which posts? of which threads? did you see me saying that all threads in the civ3 forums were like that?
btw, 3-4 out of 200 means 98-98.5% 
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Mark: I find myself in total agreement Lib, except that egos are valuable and should never be appologized for. I have often observed your personal attacks in other threads was quite shocked.
The people who criticise CIVIII do so because we do love the game. If we didn't care we wouldn't write. That critisism is valuable, I teach quality management and customer comments, especially negative ones are extremely valuable opportunities.
You personally owe Lib, and others in this forum an appology for some of the unwaranted, glibe and mean gibes you've made to their persons. Simply that as the moderator of this forum you have a higher responsiblity not only to be fair, but to set an example for the behavior of others, if you want to maintain your credability.
And yes, the overt and perversive PC censorship is annoying and insulting, but it is your forum, your rules, and your problem. But if your concerned about other people's feelings, try to respect them in practice with the words you do allow.
It is personally embarrasing to me that I've had to make this statement to you.
Other than this I do think you've done an excellent job.
The fact is that CIV III is a seriously flawed product IN RELATION TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE for a 3rd generation 21st century product. As a game, it is not without merit. But the flaws go deeper than tweeks and patches, there is serious negligence and immaturity that is obvious to see. This is not a whine, it is a thoughtful evaluation of a product based upon experience and knowledge. It breaks my heart when I try to play it.
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paulmagusnet
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Boulder Creek,CA,USA
Nov 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by woody
Mark, don't bother responding to Lib. He's an egotistical jerk, who needs to have his deflated self-esteem pumped up by people responding to his inane personal attacks. You're only encouraging him. Everyone knows he's a hypocrit. If people would just ignore him, maybe he'll go away. |
Oh, and Mark, a VERY public statement concerning this posting might be warrented, along with a ban from the forum for some reasonable period of time.
This is the kind of thing your actions have encouraged.
Please DO someting about it, before it becomes common and acepted practice.
Respectfully yours,
Paul Neubauer
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volcanohead
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On a volcano
Oct 2001
time: 06:17
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There are many posters here who have supported the Civ series for many years, who feel personally involved with the game, and who are smart. And we have Firaxis who, by all accounts, are similarly motivated by Civ, and are beavering away coming up with solutions to the problems that have been raised by posters on these boards and other forums.
The problem is that many posters are driven to frustration by the lack of information coming from Firaxis, and I can imagine that many Firaxians must get pretty frustrated with what they read on these boards. I can understand why Firaxis wants to be close-lipped about what they're doing, having being burnt badly by recent events.
Markos already does much to improve the quantity of information provided to us, but I have to agree with Lib, sometimes he does appear to be overtly negative to some posters who are critical of Firaxis, and overly lenient with some of the disgusting comments made by the 'anti-whiner' crowd (Ironikinit should have been publicly humiliated for the ****-sucker post, but I saw nothing).
Now, Markos makes a fair point, in every thread there is usually some signal and a lot of noise, and it can be time consuming to filter out that noise.
I'd like to suggest to Markos to open two threads, which are only open to him and which contain the following:
Thread 1: Apolyton's approved comments, suggestions, bugs and criticisms with regard to Civ3
Thread 2: Distilled information deriving from Firaxis.
In this way, the comment that Markos made about the difficulty Firaxis has in finding the relevant information from us is resolved, and we have a one-stop-shop for the latest from Firaxis.
This is obviously a fair amount of work, and requires Markos to read through each thread and take the sensible and cogent comments he thinks relevant to insert into the first thread. Optimistically though, if people now that if they post a clear and well argued case for something or other, then there is a fair chance it will be included in 'the list', and this will increase the quality of posting as well as reducing frustration.
It will also open up Markos to criticism as it will be very clear to all of us what his ideas and opinions are in the selection process. And for this I can understand if he thinks its a bad idea. Peronally, I believe that he has enough objectivity to do this well, and it could serve as a safety valve for all of us.
Regards
V
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Libertarian
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quote:
lib: i made a comment about the content of some of the threads(and not the people) of the forums as being full of whining. if somehow you felt that yourself was included, i cant see how i caused it. |
I'm not at all concerned about myself in this matter, Mark. If you'll look once more, you'll see that my post was not about me. Let the gnats go, and have a look at the camels.
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Phalanx2000
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Dallas Tejas
Dec 2000
time: 05:17
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Hey guys and gals. Please don't flame me I'm just trying to understand what is going on:
The 1.17f patch was available but now it isn't. It was obviously pulled for a reason. My question is, was it pulled bc of an editor issue or the stacking thing or what? Multiple reasons? I don't want to install it if the general vibe is to not do it, so.... can y'all help me out here?
Thanks,
Pha
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woody
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quote:
Originally posted by volcanohead
I'd like to suggest to Markos to open two threads, which are only open to him and which contain the following:
Thread 1: Apolyton's approved comments, suggestions, bugs and criticisms with regard to Civ3
Thread 2: Distilled information deriving from Firaxis.
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Good idea. It's very frustrating to read this forum, which is supposed to be moderated. Unfortunately, there's more noise here (mostly whining), than there is on Usenet. That's pretty bad! Yes, I know I've posted a couple of articles which just added more noise, but it's out of the frustration of having to read so many stupid posts just to find one good one.
There is useful information on this forum, but it's often time-consuming to find. A few top-threads, which are heavily moderated, would be much more useful. I think that only the moderators should be allowed to forward articles to those threads. This would stop a lot of flame-wars.
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16-02-2002 09:06
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