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ACooper
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In a dark and scary hole!
Apr 1999
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by paulmagusnet
Mark: I find myself in total agreement Lib, except that egos are valuable and should never be appologized for. I have often observed your personal attacks in other threads was quite shocked.
The people who criticise CIVIII do so because we do love the game. If we didn't care we wouldn't write. That critisism is valuable, I teach quality management and customer comments, especially negative ones are extremely valuable opportunities.
You personally owe Lib, and others in this forum an appology for some of the unwaranted, glibe and mean gibes you've made to their persons. Simply that as the moderator of this forum you have a higher responsiblity not only to be fair, but to set an example for the behavior of others, if you want to maintain your credability.
And yes, the overt and perversive PC censorship is annoying and insulting, but it is your forum, your rules, and your problem. But if your concerned about other people's feelings, try to respect them in practice with the words you do allow.
It is personally embarrasing to me that I've had to make this statement to you.
Other than this I do think you've done an excellent job.
The fact is that CIV III is a seriously flawed product IN RELATION TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE for a 3rd generation 21st century product. As a game, it is not without merit. But the flaws go deeper than tweeks and patches, there is serious negligence and immaturity that is obvious to see. This is not a whine, it is a thoughtful evaluation of a product based upon experience and knowledge. It breaks my heart when I try to play it. |
Points:
1. Mark needs to apologize to no one. I have always seen him fair with people and games. (He has even banned me and made me change my name. And some consider me a so called "sychophant")
2. If it breaks your heart, don't play it. Also please don't subject us to your hate of the game. If you have a specific comment or request place it in the appropriate place. But your inflamatory rhetoric is useless to a discussion.
3. From the chat on Friday the guys from Firaxis said that they do read the board, but that the also use the "Ignore" feature where needed. Therefore, if you continually flame them, do you really think they will continue to read what you post. Therefore, once again you become useless.
4. BTW, I thought this thead was about the patch. Silly me.
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Libertarian
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Gee... so did I... Let's keep it that way! |
No problem.
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CharlesUFarley
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by woody
Mark, don't bother responding to Lib. He's an egotistical jerk, who needs to have his deflated self-esteem pumped up by people responding to his inane personal attacks. You're only encouraging him. Everyone knows he's a hypocrit. If people would just ignore him, maybe he'll go away. |
This is the very thing that Lib was trying to explain what is wrong with this board rather than what is right with it. Obviously calling someone a jerk just because you don't like what they have to say, or how they feel on the matter is ridiculous and very un-called for, I hope MarkG deals with this individual properly, according to policy. But rather than stepping on an ant like "woody" with our usual retalitory - we just spontaneously combust because we already know that "woody" is closed minded to any form of difference therefor making an attempt at trying to reason with someone like him, futile. I've read Lib's post (yes the long one to MarkG) and I completely agree with it, that's what I've been trying to say all along, but I'm not as good with the english language and gramar as Lib is, unfortunately. But I will highlight his point in hopes to burn this into everyone's mind, good or bad.
Point: Although alot of us have different views on this board, we should all clan together in unity, by demonstrating patience, tolerance and even maturity and allowing each and every individual on this board (no matter how un-popular they have become - me for example.  ) and give them the freedom and rights to express their human emotions whether it be criticism or praise. The simple fact is, only MarkG can determine what kind of content he wants displayed on this board, not an individual member. So with that said, if you don't like someone's post and have nothing usefull to add to it, then move to the next. I admit I've broken this myself, but in the end I too realize that it is wrong, and very un-productive. I personally had to take a couple weeks away from this board because I was letting it get to me. In the least, we all have something in common - Civilization (TM). Let's try and make this the best damn game we can! 
Charles.
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woody
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quote:
Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
But rather than stepping on an ant like "woody" with our usual retalitory - we just spontaneously combust because we already know that "woody" is closed minded to any form of difference therefor making an attempt at trying to reason with someone like him, futile. Charles. |
Perhaps the tone of my response to MarkG was too harsh for this board. I've heard the moderators censor things quite a bit, but I suppose it's their right to moderate content. I didn't realize others would be so oversensitive, but I definitely hit a nerve in Lib.
However, I do stand by what I said. I believe it to be completely true, although I won't repeat the way I said it because it's obviously too harsh for most people here.
Lib's character is one thing. The frequency and repetition of his complaining is another issue. If he simply stated his complaints once, it would be enough. He shouldn't repeat them dozens of times. That's what bothers some of us.
I agree there's lots of bugs in Civ3. I don't agree with flaming Firaxis about them.
That's all I have to say. I don't see the need for dragging this out to a flame-war. You may have the last word.
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CharlesUFarley
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by woody
Perhaps the tone of my response to MarkG was too harsh for this board. I've heard the moderators censor things quite a bit, but I suppose it's their right to moderate content. I didn't realize others would be so oversensitive, but I definitely hit a nerve in Lib. |
I don't agree, I think Lib just laughed you off. And yes you were harsh and very un-reasonable, it's one thing to disagree with someone, but it's another to start insulting them because you can't force them to agree with you.
quote:
However, I do stand by what I said. I believe it to be completely true, although I won't repeat the way I said it because it's obviously too harsh for most people here. |
I wouldn't say harsh, but it's definately imature and futile to get personal with people you don't know personally, make sense?
quote:
Lib's character is one thing. The frequency and repetition of his complaining is another issue. If he simply stated his complaints once, it would be enough. He shouldn't repeat them dozens of times. That's what bothers some of us. |
Well I agree that the same retorics shouldn't be repeated, but you seem to forget this board is free and one of it's freedoms is that of free speech (for the exception of house policy) and if someone feels that they have to repeat themselves, then I begin to wonder why. I personally had to repeat my arguments because I was often attacked by multiple members of this board who all wondered the same thing, why I was mad. By you jumping on Lib, you only become that which you despise.
quote:
I agree there's lots of bugs in Civ3. I don't agree with flaming Firaxis about them. |
Well, you're half right. Yes there are many things wrong with this game, but that's not why Firaxis was being flammed, they got attacked because they lacked any communication with the community and when they responded to questions and inquiry, they gave us vague responses and rarely answered them. People don't start flamming for no reason, something set them off.
quote:
That's all I have to say. I don't see the need for dragging this out to a flame-war. You may have the last word. |
This isn't a contest or "the last word" it's merely me trying to explain to people like you that everyone has a different view, and just because you don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean you can become judge over their actions and morales. But asside from all that I respect what you said when you mentioned that we shouldn't become un-productive by insulting the game developers, this is true - it will lead no where.
Charles.
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hwinkels
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quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
Maybe they heard. Maybe they didn't. If only there were some way we could have known. But alas, how? |
This is an issue that doesn't seem to get much attention. While Firaxis does occasionally respond to specific questions, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The net result is that some conclude "The lights are on but nobody's home."
Many "whines" get started after the Firaxians remain unresponsive to requests for information. Such a pattern of responses - or the lack thereof - leads to speculation as to why they choose to remain silent. I know I, for one, would be satisfied with even a "We're considering it", or "We don't think we'll be able to get to that for a few months" type of response. One way of viewing their tactics is to assume they are arrogant, dismissive, or incompetent. Another viewpoint would hold that there are business or legal reasons behind what they choose to reveal or not reveal.
It's like Nixon's secret plan to end the war in Vietnam. "Trust me" (or us as the case may be). Nobody knows what's really going on and the silence is deafening. Personally, I expect the worst but hope for the best. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised by the 1.17f patch. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. It's encouraging to know they are toiling at bug fixing and enhancements. A little insight now and then as to what their immediate plans are would be not a bad thing.
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dowish
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Spokane WA
Nov 2001
time: 21:17
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I thank that they got burned pretty bad because of all the things they said they wanted or were going to include in the game. Then, when it came out with out a lot of that stuff (for whatever reason it wasn't included) they got burned. So they have taken at least an unofficial position that if it isn't 100% sure, they won't talk about.
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CharlesUFarley
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by hwinkels
This is an issue that doesn't seem to get much attention. While Firaxis does occasionally respond to specific questions, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The net result is that some conclude "The lights are on but nobody's home."
Many "whines" get started after the Firaxians remain unresponsive to requests for information. Such a pattern of responses - or the lack thereof - leads to speculation as to why they choose to remain silent. I know I, for one, would be satisfied with even a "We're considering it", or "We don't think we'll be able to get to that for a few months" type of response. One way of viewing their tactics is to assume they are arrogant, dismissive, or incompetent. Another viewpoint would hold that there are business or legal reasons behind what they choose to reveal or not reveal.
It's like Nixon's secret plan to end the war in Vietnam. "Trust me" (or us as the case may be). Nobody knows what's really going on and the silence is deafening. Personally, I expect the worst but hope for the best. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised by the 1.17f patch. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. It's encouraging to know they are toiling at bug fixing and enhancements. A little insight now and then as to what their immediate plans are would be not a bad thing. |
From a consumer point of view, "I'm sorry we cannot help you, due to company policy" is surely going to agrivate the customer even more. Simply, when someone makes a purchase they have expectations that acompany that purchase, and when they aren't happy for whatever reason a company in most cases hides behind policy so they don't have to go that extra length and consume company resources to please each and every individual consumer. However the companies that do, are rewarded by excellent reputation and an increase in sales. But am I to judge what Firaxis should, or should not do? No. That's completely up to them, but do I feel that they've been handling things poorly, yes. There are alot of ways to do business, and the "nixon" "area-51" or "Hoffa" methods should not be one of them. But you are right.
Charles.
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SKev
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Phoenix, AZ
Nov 2001
time: 22:17
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As of 9:30 MST, you could again download the version 1.17f patch. No change on the download page indicating this is an updated or corrected version of the patch.
SKev
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SKev
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Phoenix, AZ
Nov 2001
time: 22:17
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Since this thread has been hijacked, I’ll put in my $.02 on this issue…
What exactly is it that will please those who complain about Firaxis’s “silence” in the face of their “suggestions” to improve the game? I could simply dismiss it as chronic whining by those who will not be happy until the game is molded into something that they personally want regardless of cost, feasibility, compatibility with the other parts of the game or broad market appeal. But I think it goes deeper than that.
I get the sense there are those out there who expect 24/7 attention from Dan, Jeff and the rest of the Firaxis team because they not only purchased their product but believe they are the heart and soul of the Civ community and they know what’s best for Civ and the rest of us fans. The instant they’ve made what they believe to be an insightful comment, complaint or criticism about they game, they expect someone from Firaxis to promptly respond with a “Yes Sir, we’ll take care of that right way!” or engage in a three hour personal dialogue about whatever change in the game they want that day.
Dan, Jeff or Soren could spend all day every day responding to the flood of comments, complaints or criticisms and it wouldn’t change anything. When would they have time to program a patch? I guess Firaxis could just hire extra people to field these comments, but these “customer service representatives” wouldn’t know anything about the programming or nuances of the game, so that wouldn’t do it for those who want instant gratification. Plus, I doubt any gaming company has the cash lying around to set up and maintain this kind of personal, hands on support. You bought a $50 game, not a $150,000 Mercedes. Even then, I doubt Mercedes has engineers waiting at the dealerships to explain why the gauges on the dash are laid out the way they are or why “x” structural design (engine design, cabin design, etc.) was used over something that each individual Mercedes purchaser would have preferred.
Would it make the “true fans” happy if after every comment they made they got a form email from Firaxis that said “Thanks for your input. We appreciate your comments and will take them under consideration. You are a valuable member of the Civ community?” Of course not! They expect, nay demand, that their voices be given special attention and their opinions be placed above all others. Plus, they are so important they must receive an explanation, in detail and to their satisfaction, of why their brilliant idea has not been incorporate into the game or the latest patch. Anything less than that and Firaxis has “abandoned” their loyal customers. This is simply nonsense.
I think Firaxis has done a pretty good job of listening. Just because they haven’t personally responded to you or made your pet change doesn’t mean they didn’t hear your comment. There have been great ideas offered from the Civ community. Some have been incorporated in the game, some may be in a future patch and some are never going to make it.
You have the absolute right to make whatever comments you want about the game. The fact that you exercise that right (for some, multiple times every day) does not create a reciprocal responsibility or obligation that Firaxis to respond to your comment. I believe most people are sincere in their desire to make Civ the best game possible. I also think Firaxis wants to make the best game economically possible. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough for the vast majority of Civ players. The rest of them will just have to live with it. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live with them.
SKev
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Raion
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There are people who have played the previous versions of Civ all the way back to ms-dos Civ, but CivI for Windows, is where many started.
The game is the same. The reflection of the real world, the agony of defeat, the thrill of the victory.
Many people instead of complaining have simply sought how to play the game, and once use to it, you can tell certain things about the game.
Its still the same concept, and it still plays that way, not that this version is harder or easier, nor are some features there, nor this way nor that way. The game has always been that way.
Your Civ is dumb in the beginning, it will begin to get a little smarter as the game goes on, and remembers what action you take. This all ties in to the end game, where you, and you alone, decide what everything going on in your Civ, is doing.
This may seem frustrating for some in the beginning, but as you develop your skills in playing the game, you will get use to it.
Its always has been that way, and that is why some people who have played it before, know that.
That's why its so much fun!
Did one think that you just sit down at your computer and play a game, trying to involve yourself, telling yourself all the way, that you should like such and such a game, because you were telling yourself that you did.
Well, with Civilization, you won't have to tell yourself after awhile, it will be like virtual reality, there will be a relaxation with the game, never experienced before with other game, (although you may still like them), but where can you find a game that until you master it, will give you the kind of satisfaction of playing it until you can.
You will get better, but if you are in a rush, I can tell you that you have not tried out every stragedy in the book of books on stagedy, nor have you completely gone off your rocker and just decided to wipe out this game.
You decide, did you not want too?
Many other people have, and have had more fun doing that, then worrying or nitpicking about some features that seem missing but are not!
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CharlesUFarley
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SKev
Since this thread has been hijacked, I’ll put in my $.02 on this issue…
What exactly is it that will please those who complain about Firaxis’s “silence” in the face of their “suggestions” to improve the game? I could simply dismiss it as chronic whining by those who will not be happy until the game is molded into something that they personally want regardless of cost, feasibility, compatibility with the other parts of the game or broad market appeal. But I think it goes deeper than that. |
It's called human emotion - we're people purchasing games, not robots purchasing games.
quote:
I get the sense there are those out there who expect 24/7 attention from Dan, Jeff and the rest of the Firaxis team because they not only purchased their product but believe they are the heart and soul of the Civ community and they know what’s best for Civ and the rest of us fans. The instant they’ve made what they believe to be an insightful comment, complaint or criticism about they game, they expect someone from Firaxis to promptly respond with a “Yes Sir, we’ll take care of that right way!” or engage in a three hour personal dialogue about whatever change in the game they want that day. |
No, I think you make assumptions of people (specificly, the critics) that it's a "personal attention" or "social acknowledgment" score, this is nonsense. People have real emotions yes, but are people doing these things for attention, ofcoarse not. People obviously either approve or they do not. Neither is wrong, both are acceptable forms of expression and should not be cast aside because someone is tired of reading it. If you don't like what you read in the newspaper, do you call up the press and complain about the critics? Obviously you wouldn't, why would you're complaint regarding criticism and "whiners" be any better than the actually "complaining" ? Because you have emotions, and you're expressing them.
quote:
Dan, Jeff or Soren could spend all day every day responding to the flood of comments, complaints or criticisms and it wouldn’t change anything. When would they have time to program a patch? I guess Firaxis could just hire extra people to field these comments, but these “customer service representatives” wouldn’t know anything about the programming or nuances of the game, so that wouldn’t do it for those who want instant gratification. Plus, I doubt any gaming company has the cash lying around to set up and maintain this kind of personal, hands on support. You bought a $50 game, not a $150,000 Mercedes. Even then, I doubt Mercedes has engineers waiting at the dealerships to explain why the gauges on the dash are laid out the way they are or why “x” structural design (engine design, cabin design, etc.) was used over something that each individual Mercedes purchaser would have preferred. |
It only takes me about 30 mins to answer a hundred emails or so, on multiple sites. If 3-4 members of Firaxis spent a few hours of company time each day, they could more than handle the volume, besides what's wrong with taking 100 questions and answering them all at once, on one page? They have a nice Q&A box on the home site, but it's never updated. Point being, there are many ways to do you're job in life, as they say, and the current way is obvsiouly not working. And you stick with what works. And regardless of what you buy, anything from a hair brush to a ferrari, you always have a consumer right to criticise and complain if you're not satisfied. I have to deal with "complaining customers" all the time at work, and regardless of the volume, we have to answer them! Otherwise I would be fired, simple. And again, this has nothing to do with personal attention, many people (including myself) have written to them, and recieved little or no responses in months, and I got tired of emailing them hundreds of times with the same questions (still unanswered).
quote:
Would it make the “true fans” happy if after every comment they made they got a form email from Firaxis that said “Thanks for your input. We appreciate your comments and will take them under consideration. You are a valuable member of the Civ community?” Of course not! They expect, nay demand, that their voices be given special attention and their opinions be placed above all others. Plus, they are so important they must receive an explanation, in detail and to their satisfaction, of why their brilliant idea has not been incorporate into the game or the latest patch. Anything less than that and Firaxis has “abandoned” their loyal customers. This is simply nonsense. |
Actually, yes. If a customer (especially in this case) isn't happy with the product, the developers/company is subjected (by good business policy) to pamper their clients/customers. And just because this is a game, doesn't make the "purchase" or the "shares" any less valuble or subjective. But I'm not suggesting that they answer every little email and complaint, that's impossible, but a good Q&A gathering system, with a monthly update letter would be fine. But you are exactly right with that statement of yours, the customer should be treated with complete respect and regard on all product based matters.
quote:
You have the absolute right to make whatever comments you want about the game. The fact that you exercise that right (for some, multiple times every day) does not create a reciprocal responsibility or obligation that Firaxis to respond to your comment. I believe most people are sincere in their desire to make Civ the best game possible. I also think Firaxis wants to make the best game economically possible. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough for the vast majority of Civ players. The rest of them will just have to live with it. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live with them. |
But you're not telling everyone things we all don't already know. Even the people complaining know that personal attention, and self gratification doesn't exist with this type of business. They market a product, we buy the product and it's pretty much just that. But the one thing that will never escape these kinds of incidents is human emotion as I said above. Remember: these are people buying the products and putting wealth into the company, they aren't emotionless robots. They deserve to be treated with a "face to face" customer respect. Common sense.
So did you make you're point, and express you're feelings on the matter, definately. Have you changed minds, or enlightened anyone, I doubt it. Just understand, as you are upset with people complaining repeatetively, remember they too are upset for reason(s). 
Happiness: The only way to quiet the critics, and please the "whiners" IMO is for Firaxis to allow it's community to play more of a role in the development, accompanied by updated responses baring useful information. Or, they can keep patching the game until it meets public demand, and throw in an Xpack.
Charles.
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CharlesUFarley
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ACooper
Ok. Lets do the math.
4 people X 2 hours a day X 5 days a week = 40 hours a week.
That is 40 hours of well paid programers time. (programers ain't cheap, just easy)
I don't know what they get paid out there, but I'm sure that spending a full quarter of thier work day would not be productive especially when 90% of the answers would basically come down to "Thank you Charles for the input. PLEASE READ THE F__ING MANUAL".
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 I see you're point. But on the other hand, (and I was saying this all along) they should take the volume of questions, and compress it into a simple Q&A link on thier website, or here on apolyton. Because most of the questions are common, with the exception of a few that branch off on a whole other tandom. So with common questions (the majority of them anyway) answered in a Q&A format on a public non-commercial site, would not only save them money, but time. Right now, they answer emails speratically, with a few setnances here and there in random threads. I think the administators of this website, and the web designers for the Civ-Homesite should put their minds together and come up with a good quick easy method of volume control. With that said, both consumer and company would profit, one with knowledge, and the other with profit. I'm not suggesting they answer each and every little email, I'm saying they should weave through the threads, pick out the questions, and jot them down on a notepad, and then answer them all at once in Q&A format. Ofcoarse that could take some time, but a hell of alot less than it does now to answer volume emails. Wouldn't you agree?
Either way, anything is better than what it is now.
Charles.
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Just reading through. I hope they will add a cheat editor in the next patch.
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18-02-2002 19:44
I would too, if it was a "personal email", but in this case it's a "business email" and contians information regarding a product. 
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