15-02-2002 10:28									#31
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I am fairly certain the Bible compares the state of Man in heaven to the state of Man in the garden of eden.

If heaven has no death of people, then the garden of eden has no death of people.

(if you accept those interpretations)

also, the result of eating of the tree was death

as said in the Bible (if you don't think that bit is fairy tale)

it is internally consistent

it just doesn't make sense if you start throwing out bits and pieces

now I also admit that you can make interpretations that not only venture where science says nothing, but goes were science says that the interpretation is false.

I maintain that the Bible can be internally consistent and interpretations can be made that are not disproved by science.

Jon Miller

	15-02-2002 10:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse If there are millions of stars and millions of inhabited planets and God had to die a horrible death on each of them to save the sentient beings that would border on fetish. It would make God a very weird character indeed.

I think that there are millions of start and millions of inhabited planets.

I, however, do not beleive all sinned.

Also, I am not sure that God would not need to die on more than 1 world. If Jesus can die for the sins of the world, I see no problem with Him dying for the sins of the universe.

Jon Miller

	15-02-2002 10:41									#33
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quote: Also, I am not sure that God would not need to die on more than 1 world. If Jesus can die for the sins of the world, I see no problem with Him dying for the sins of the universe.

I can see the opening lines of the Alien's Bible:

"A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."

	15-02-2002 10:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I think that there are millions of start and millions of inhabited planets. I, however, do not beleive all sinned.

That's a hilarious answer

(we really need that lol smilie that rolls)

	15-02-2002 11:15									#35
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I always try to be entertaining

and to acknoledge the possibility of the strange

Jon Miller

	15-02-2002 14:31									#36
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I think the fact that creationists make so much up while pouncing on any evolutionist for the smallest gap or bit of speculation illustrates their selective reasoning, and that their agenda is not really to promote good,rational,objective science and "fairness" in the class room. But to dress up their religion as scientific fact so that they can push it on everyone else in the public arena.

And btw, just because a theory is logically possible it doesn't mean that its proven,should be taken seriously or even probable. The Greek myth;developed by Anaximander; of all animals appearing all at once in random combinations and many dying off until only the working combinations remained..... is logically possible but in no way a good explanation for how modern day species came to be. Though it is more realistic then the Christian theory.(And I bet any Christian would flat out laugh at an atheist for advocating such a unproven theory to account for mankind's origins, again showing how "faith" is only good to a Xian when it's faith in God.)

Anaximander saw through creationism over 2000 years ago in Pagan Greece. With reasoning far more sound then any modern day fundies. Evolutionary theories have thus been around far longer then the Christian myth,they have always been a part of Westen culture and will go on long after the Christian myth is as abandoned as the myths of its Pagan ancestors.

Last edited by Logical Realist on 15-02-2002 at 14:37

	15-02-2002 15:04									#37
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Actually, the Bible DOES say how old Adam was when his kids were born, and how long he lived. Working back from the genealogies, Adam was created around 4000 BC.

I have a question. According to the Bible, grass was created before any of the animals. But there is no grass, or grass pollen, in the fossil record until after the dinosaurs died (they ate ferns and suchlike). According to creationists, the sequence of fossils is due to the ability of creatures to reach higher ground as the Flood waters rose (i.e. sloths could outrun velociraptors in those days).

So when did grass lose the ability to run to higher ground, and how fast could grass run?

	15-02-2002 16:47									#38
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When does single cell organisms decide to choose to become animal life or plant life?

	15-02-2002 17:00									#39
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quote: When does single cell organisms decide to choose to become animal life or plant life?

Isn't that a bit of a loaded question and a straw man? Has any evolutionary scientist ever said that cells make conscious decisions to become plants and animals? Looks like you are grasping for straws.

Plants and animals just developed that way via natural,nonconscious processes.

Tad poles turn into frogs...did they make a conscious decision? cuts heal back...did the cells decide to heal the cut? No. But they do because that is in accordance with their nature.

Just like rain...the atmosphere doesn't decide to be rainy....rain just happens. Like evolution.

	15-02-2002 17:05									#40
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Was the first life a plant or animal?

	15-02-2002 17:14									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless I have a question. According to the Bible, grass was created before any of the animals. But there is no grass, or grass pollen, in the fossil record until after the dinosaurs died (they ate ferns and suchlike). According to creationists, the sequence of fossils is due to the ability of creatures to reach higher ground as the Flood waters rose (i.e. sloths could outrun velociraptors in those days). So when did grass lose the ability to run to higher ground, and how fast could grass run?

Actually, grass evolved during the time when Earth's climate started,for the very first time, to cool. That was the time when the huge rainforest started to diminish and gave way to prairie,savanna and the like. There was no grass when dinosaurs lived.
The running speed of grass depends on wether it's european or african grass.

	15-02-2002 17:31									#42
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quote: Well, damn. My dog will die pre-sin. Babies die pre-sin. I don't think it takes a radical leap of faith or logic to think that people can die before they sin.

Actually, if the baby hasn't been baptized, it dies with the original sin of Adam and Eve (which the Greek philosephers etc. died with. Read Dante's Inferno, awesome book.) And according to popular Judeo-Christian belief, dogs don't have souls. I don't believe it, but since I'm taking the creationist side (in this issue, just for fun), that's what the belief is.

	15-02-2002 17:42									#43
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Im Jewish

	15-02-2002 18:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Actually, if the baby hasn't been baptized, it dies with the original sin of Adam and Eve (which the Greek philosephers etc. died with. Read Dante's Inferno, awesome book.) And according to popular Judeo-Christian belief, dogs don't have souls. I don't believe it, but since I'm taking the creationist side (in this issue, just for fun), that's what the belief is.

that is according to some Christians beleives not to others.

For the baby bit I wouldn't be surprised if all babies are saved (just cause God is kind and merciful). But I do beleive that sin has affected the baby (it just has not done anything yet). It is not in a state of presin (it is a fallen being).

(I am also taking some beleifs I do not have, and the others are right, if we are going to argue this position you have to make the interpretation in sink with science)

Jon Miller

	15-02-2002 19:26									#45
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Also, I am not sure that God would not need to die on more than 1 world. If Jesus can die for the sins of the world, I see no problem with Him dying for the sins of the universe. I can see the opening lines of the Alien's Bible: "A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."

we really need a smiley that rolls

	15-02-2002 21:02									#46
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Has anyone read the Silmarilion? If you read that, and the bible, it's hard to say which is more plausible.

	15-02-2002 21:09									#47
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Here's a question that has always bothered me.

Let's say, thousands of years from now, we've colonized other worlds, many light-years away.

And then, surprise, Yeshua decides to make his return appearance to our insignificant little rock. The "Rapture".

What the hell happens to all the people who are on the other planets?

(As a side note, I have an almost overwhelming urge to rear-end those cars that have "WARNING: This car may be rendered driverless in case of Rapture" bumper stickers.)

	15-02-2002 21:26									#48
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Pangea was during the day that God made the land, then seperated it to create the continents.

Problem: Pangea was not the beginning of Earth's history. This we know.

	16-02-2002 11:43									#49
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quote: Doc:Was the first life a plant or animal?

Who said it had to be either plant or animal? Sounds like a false dilema. If you had payed attention in biology class you would know there were other kigndoms out there besides plants and animals, like fungi and monera. The first lifeform may have been virus like and such...In between what we consider "life" and "nonlife".

In fact I don't think any evolutionary scientist or advocater of abiogenesis ever said that the first life form was a plant or animal. The fact that you are unaware of this tells me you've done very little if any research in this area on your own.

	16-02-2002 11:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Was the first life a plant or animal?

I doubt it would be either; they're both much too complex. I'd guess that the first life was either a protist or a moneran.

	16-02-2002 13:08									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist The first lifeform may have been virus like and such...In between what we consider "life" and "nonlife".

I agree with you, but it wouldn't have been a virus. One of the prime characteristics of a virus is that it needs a host cell to replicate, and if it were the first lifeform, it wouldn't have that.

	16-02-2002 18:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Oh, and John, there is another option. Think of God (I can't believe I'm saying this) as Microsoft. We're version whatever of His plan. Evolution is His way of bringing out new versions, updating, and making Patches. I personally come from the school of thought that says God is responsible for Evolution. (And there is even a school of thought which says that God is the product of evolution.)

No, if you follow the Bible at all you realize it says that the Garden, Adam, and Eve were all perfect when they were created. Since the Fall we've all been devolving.

	16-02-2002 18:11									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Hell, the only thing I wanna know is how did the fossils get there. Either a. The Bible is wrong and modern evolutionary theories are right (as far as our current understanding goes, though there is still plenty to learn.) b. The Bible is right and God is a prime bastard for purposely deceiving his creations by planting false evidence that suggests a history that never happened. Being a believer in God, I gotta go with A. If the answer is B, well, then, screw him.

There is a third option. The Bible is right and there is no false evidence, only evidence that has been misinterpreted. Much of what we were taught in school as fact is actually opinion. This whole evolution business and the age of the earth being measured in billions of years is very questionable. But since it is pushed on the general mouth breathing public as Science they swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

We can open that can of worms if you want to. I would recommend that you start another thread and PM me if you do.

David

	16-02-2002 18:21									#54
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There is one irrefutable creationist answer: God created the world as it would have been if it were created by evolution. Not only were all fossils in place, but there were plants and animals created in the process of doing things, etc. But I don't believe that. And if it were true then it would both be unprovable and have no scientific relevance.

	16-02-2002 18:23									#55
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Actually, if the baby hasn't been baptized, it dies with the original sin of Adam and Eve (which the Greek philosephers etc. died with. Read Dante's Inferno, awesome book.) And according to popular Judeo-Christian belief, dogs don't have souls. I don't believe it, but since I'm taking the creationist side (in this issue, just for fun), that's what the belief is.

If you're going to take the creationists side then please try to get your doctrine straight. Salvation is by faith alone, not works. Baptism or no baptism the baby (and the rest of us) get judged by God according to his/her ability to understand and believe.

Dante's Inferno is an amusing piece of fiction, don't confuse it with Scripture.

David

	16-02-2002 18:27									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit There is one irrefutable creationist answer: God created the world as it would have been if it were created by evolution. Not only were all fossils in place, but there were plants and animals created in the process of doing things, etc.

That is far from irrefutable. I, for one, do not believe it.

David

	16-02-2002 18:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Big Dave That is far from irrefutable. I, for one, do not believe it. David

No, but you can't refute it. It is impossible to prove incorrect.

	16-02-2002 18:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit No, but you can't refute it. It is impossible to prove incorrect.

Yes, I can refute it. If evolution is the myth I believe it to be then Deistic Evolution is also false.

The issue here is what constitutes science. The short answer is "that which can be verified by the scientifice method". Evolution does not meet that criteria. Neither does creation. Neither event/process is reproducable.

David

	17-02-2002 02:09									#59
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evolutionists you see...are so desperate to get the better of creationists, that they'll ask the dumbest questions. But how bout we take a shot at it:

Many of you talk about the big bang. And everything just "happened." If that is so, how was it possible? You place all the nessicary computer components in a bag, toss it around a bit, and wala!!! You have a computer!! hahaha, sorry, doesn't work.

	17-02-2002 02:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Big Dave Yes, I can refute it. If evolution is the myth I believe it to be then Deistic Evolution is also false. The issue here is what constitutes science. The short answer is "that which can be verified by the scientifice method". Evolution does not meet that criteria. Neither does creation. Neither event/process is reproducable. David

Ah, but it can be ascertained through various other reproducible phenomena.

And you have not logically disproved it. You have just proved it irrelevant. Which it is.