22-02-2002 17:58									#31
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quote: BTW Serb do you mind if I ask you something else? (Sorry I very rarely see Russians in the forum and I have a lot to ask )

Of course I don’t mind. I am by myself see Russians rarely on those forums.

quote: During the NATO bombardement in Serbia did anything about the formation of the Orthodox Axis (union from Russia down to Greece) was discussed in Russia?

Yes, it was.
I’m still ashamed about those events.
Everybody in Russia felt the same. It was feeling that we betrayed our brothers, and it was talks about creation of such kind of alliance. In fact this alliance existed before collapse of SU. It was called Warsaw Pact, but when SU collapsed every member of this alliance was forced to stand alone against foreign aggression. We felt ashamed that our government denied to protect, to help Yugoslavia. And we still ashamed about this. Those event is one of shames part of our history.
P.S. I am not a worshiper of soviet system, but I think that secure system of that time is much better then no secure system at all. I’m absolutely sure that bombardment of Yugoslavia can not happen in times of WP.

	22-02-2002 18:28									#32
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If Russia decided to stop NATO I can guarantee you that Greece would be with you! And not even western imposed dictatorhips would had stoped us this time.

There was also shame in Greece. Not so much shame (as we are a small country and cannot take on all of NATO...) but great anger against the west, both Europe and particularly USA.

Anger and humiliation.

Athens had to be made a police state when Clinton visited.
The phrase "butcher of the Balkans" was heard everywhere.

Mass demonstrations, aid to Serbia.

Some Greeks went to fight with the Serbs (and the government could not stop them, they were free citizens after all). But not many...
And of course we (unofficially ) broke every embargo against Serbia.

I think most Balkan countries (except... Albania ) would have joined Russia if it said "NO" to NATO. Many people wanted to.

Now the balkans are broken up in small states - all satelites of "bigger powers"... and Serbia, our ally since the new birth of Greece, is destroyed...

But it is amazing how fast people forget now...

But when the bombings against Serbia were taking place, it was another Greece...

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 22-02-2002 at 18:41

	22-02-2002 18:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't see it as propaganda. It's not pushing any sort of government policy in most cases.

Sometimes the most effective propaganda relies on the fact that it works very subtly. Karl Marx differentiated between the Repression State Apparatus (which consists of easily-visible methods of control such as tanks, guns, and soldiers) and the Ideological State Apparatus (which consists of media control and other oblique methods of instilling an ideology).

In the primary case, resistance is easy since the state apparatus is highly visible, but in the latter case, it is much more difficult to consciously organize a resistance (whether it's a personal decision to trust it less, or a community initiative to protest, etc). Ideological state apparatus, according to Marx, works best when it is least detectable.

Of course, I don't go so far as to condemn Hollywood films as being puppets of the state propagandists, although that is a possibility. I think it's far more probable that they're just naturally crap.

	22-02-2002 18:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Most people like everything to neatly fall into their places, that guy is bad, he just killed people for fun, that guy is good, he tried to save those children, you see where I'm going? So, they clearly define who the bad guys and the good guys are, with hardly a plot twist thrown in.

I'm well aware of the fact that Hollywood's main concern is making money. A storyline where some americans, against all the terrible odds, overcome due to their superior wit and courage, is what draws the crowds. And offcourse I don't have to go see it.

It's just that the principle of blurring history and american fantasy is what keeps this viscious cycle going. Hollywood makers showing the crowd USA USA USA, and the crowd going USA USA USA because it says so on the screen.

	22-02-2002 18:44									#35
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... I remember that I'm watching a movie.

Of course movies are going to get facts wrong - by the nature of the medium it is impossible (and would be boring as hell) if they had to get every little detail right.

To me, quibbling about the historical accuracy of a movie is kinda like Star Wars nerds arguing over the "correctness" of the various designs of the space ships.

Of course, the example given by Connorkimbro... well, that's just laziness and should've been picked up by somebody/somewhere along the moviemaking chain (screenwriter, director, actors, key grip, cinematographer, etc.) After all, it's not as if the actor spoke the lines alone, with no one around to hear him.

	22-02-2002 18:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus The main problem I have with historic inaccuracy in hollywood movies is that movies have far more impact on a generation than a 'boring' history book.

An example please? Name a movie from, say the 1930's-1950's where the movie's impact has so overwhelmed the national consciousness that it's view of events is now considered documented fact by my (or the Baby Boom) generation.

Thanks!

	22-02-2002 19:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone What about the accuracy of "Animal House"?

I was so annoyed that they used The Kingsmen's version of Louie Louie in a movie purportedly set in 1962, a year before it was recorded. Sure, it fits better with the frat-rock theme of the movie (in fact, it was the only frat-rock top-ten hit), but they could have used Richard Berry's or The Wailers' version!

	22-02-2002 19:11									#38
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Many American movies are really pityfull. When we see scenes acting in France (generally Paris), they are at 99,99% wrong or out-dated !

French are all wearing with elegant but out-dated clothed. And the described relation-ship between American and French are biased (Godzilla is a perfect example of misconception or pure lies).

I can understand that a guy living in Texas don't care how are clothed or how speak a french. But a film-maker must be more interested in other culture if he want to make a somewhat realistic film.

In Example of Godzilla 'bad guy' are inversed : This no more the USA who create the monster, but the french. Now the victim in the USA !! Funny...

Since a decade, USA is always the victim of nasty or unconscious nations, aliens or meteor phenomenums ...

Eimrich movies are real bullshit. A president piloting a F16 and blasting evil Aliens ? no probs ! An american genius making in few hours a computer virus on an unknowned alien network ? For sure !

Gibson movies sucks too : Good American vs Evil bastard english during the independence war ?

ikii ...

The problem is not that they are unrealistic, the problem is those movies don't respect people, historical facts and other cultures. It's why I think they are really bad.

Don't think that I'm a guy who spit automaticly on "USA" movies.
Quite the opposite, since many amercian movies are good or very good too. There is a lot of good movies (Good scenarii too, good picture and special effect), really good actors and savoir-faire.
American movies are very special and some french or european movies makers tried to do as the american ways, but many failed.

	22-02-2002 19:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT An example please? Name a movie from, say the 1930's-1950's where the movie's impact has so overwhelmed the national consciousness that it's view of events is now considered documented fact by my (or the Baby Boom) generation. Thanks!

Considering the fact that most US posters here are more historic consious than the average american:
How many times have american posters here in OT posted something along the lines of: We saved your asses in WWII when we came to your aid. Thereby denying the fact that until dec 7, 1941 the USA was more than willing to sit back, relax and sell weapons. Not until being attacked and Germany declaring war on the USA did the USA start a war effort. All the heroic war movies depicting the USA as the great liberator has put an image of noble americans coming to the free worlds aid, not of realpolitiker who tried at all cost to avoid being dragged into the war.

	22-02-2002 19:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Alright, some of you are obviously missing out on the main prpose of a movie. It's there to entertain.

Let me introduce the one quote"
"The most important art for us is the cinema."
V.I. Lenin
Cinema was always the major propaganda tool.

quote: What about the accuracy of "The Hunt For Red October"

This movie is the bullshit.

quote: What about the accuracy of "Forrest Gump"?

When I saw this movie I didn't thought that Americans is the greatest nation in the world. I thought that American’s director who shoot this movie was real genius, he make movie understandable for peoples of all kind of nationalities. This movie was about goodness and love, not about the Americans as the greatest nation in this world, but films like this is really rare. I respect people who created this film. I am only sad that such film is unique

quote: What about the accuracy of "Animal House"?

Sorry I didn’t saw this film.

	22-02-2002 19:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Many American movies are really pityfull. When we see scenes acting in France (generally Paris), they are at 99,99% wrong or out-dated ! ...French are all wearing with elegant but out-dated clothed. And the described relation-ship between American and French are biased (Godzilla is a perfect example of misconception or pure lies)

Perfect example.

quote: The problem is not that they are unrealistic, the problem is those movies don't respect people, historical facts and other cultures. It's why I think they are really bad.

It is exactly what I’ve want to said.

	22-02-2002 19:44									#42
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Keep the fiction to the fictional movies. If they are going to base a film on a historic subject, it had better get all of the facts right. It's fine in sci-fi, fantasy or alternate history films (such as "Father Land") Just not in historic films.



That said, I no longer watch hollywood movies - historical innacuracies aside, the movies are all complete ****.

	22-02-2002 19:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Serb This movie is the bullshit.

It is actually not. There was a Lithuanian sub driver in the soviet navy, Mr. Pleskys, who took his sub to the US, to the great detriment of his sisters (who stayed home in Vilnius) carreer as an actress (she's one good looking babe and a great actress, Eugenija Pleskyte) in the Soviet Union.

His (the HFRO sub driver's) name Marko Ramius, though, is Klingonese before it's Lithuanian, and Sean Connery could have as well mumbled Swahili while on the mast while leaving the port.

And the river in Vilnius does NOT look like in the closing scene.

	22-02-2002 19:50									#44
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What a bullshit.

	22-02-2002 20:56									#45
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I wonder if somepeople ever learned the difference between the words fiction and non-fiction. Could this recuurent debate merely be the result of a basic deficit in Serb's, etc. education?

	22-02-2002 21:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Alynzia I'm always annoyed when movies gloss over a character being homosexual or bisexual just to make a story to please the majority. ... Hey, heoric dead people, you can be a hero as long as we don't portray you as gay.

There are currently three (THREE!) Alexander the Great projects underway in Hollywood. Does anyone know if ANY of them are going to be portraying Alexander's homosexual/bisexual tendancies?

	22-02-2002 21:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Let me introduce the one quote" "The most important art for us is the cinema." V.I. Lenin Cinema was always the major propaganda tool. This movie is the bullshit. When I saw this movie I didn't thought that Americans is the greatest nation in the world. I thought that American’s director who shoot this movie was real genius, he make movie understandable for peoples of all kind of nationalities. This movie was about goodness and love, not about the Americans as the greatest nation in this world, but films like this is really rare. I respect people who created this film. I am only sad that such film is unique Sorry I didn’t saw this film.

Uh, Serb? I think the op was, you know, being sarcastic.

	22-02-2002 21:08									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer There are currently three (THREE!) Alexander the Great projects underway in Hollywood.

AH must be earning a lot of money from his work on those films.

	22-02-2002 21:13									#49
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Dont worry the story will differ in each one and in the end none of them will be hostorically acturate

Anyone seen Attillia the Hun. Know theres a film that changes history. They kill a couple years before he reallt did and ignore everything he did in those years. e.g. burn Roma to the ground

	22-02-2002 21:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus Considering the fact that most US posters here are more historic consious than the average american: How many times have american posters here in OT posted something along the lines of: We saved your asses in WWII when we came to your aid. Thereby denying the fact that until dec 7, 1941 the USA was more than willing to sit back, relax and sell weapons. Not until being attacked and Germany declaring war on the USA did the USA start a war effort. All the heroic war movies depicting the USA as the great liberator has put an image of noble americans coming to the free worlds aid, not of realpolitiker who tried at all cost to avoid being dragged into the war.

Pretty non-responsive Drekkus. You haven't made your case that the posters getting their ideas from the movies (or any particular movie, which is what I asked for.) The cause and effect in your argument is lacking - did the belief cause the movies or did the movies cause the belief? And if it was the movies fault, which movies?

And using a quote by Lenin... well, you see what happened to his philosophy. Obviously the movies couldn't convince the people enough to keep them in the chains of Communism. (edit: Oops! Not your quote, Drekkus, it was Serb who quoted the fool. Well, I can hardly resist taking swipes at Communism so I'll just leave this here)

Also, saying "we saved your asses in WW2," while rude and arrogant, does not necessarily imply "we deny that we did nothing for the first two years." Only the young and the argumentally challenged (coinage!) expect disclaimers that list every single alternative/rebuttal to their own arguments.

Lastly, war movies... well, dude, they are about war. By definition one cannot make a war movie about an army not at war.

	22-02-2002 22:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Pretty non-responsive Drekkus. You haven't made your case that the posters getting their ideas from the movies (or any particular movie, which is what I asked for.) The cause and effect in your argument is lacking - did the belief cause the movies or did the movies cause the belief? And if it was the movies fault, which movies?

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. It's the vicious cycle the warmovies are in: Hollywood gives the audience what it wants (YEAH USA) and the audience screams YEAH USA because there are given it on the screen. It's not one particular movie, it's a trend in american war movies since WWII which has caused many americans (note 'many', not all) to believe American resolve and courage singlehandedly have saved the world from evil. The continual misinformation only keeps that believe alive.

This link here I found today, and is about a new series that's about to be developed about a REALITY show about the front lines:

http://reuters.com/news_article.jht...&StoryID=615288

"Nevertheless, the program will be "patriotic in nature," van Munster acknowledged. "The men and women who are fighting in this conflict, they deserve their moment," he said.

"While we're sitting in the comfort of our home, we want to see how these guys are taking care of business." "


Patriotism is what scores. That's what american portrayel of armed conflicts are about. Not reality. And if the facts have to suffer, too bad.

	22-02-2002 23:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker Anyone seen Attillia the Hun. Know theres a film that changes history. They kill a couple years before he reallt did and ignore everything he did in those years. e.g. burn Roma to the ground

Since when did Attila burn Rome to the ground? I don't recall Rome ever being captured by Huns. Only Alaric the Visigoths and Geiseric the Vandal did capture and plunder Rome in 410 and 455 AD respectively, but neither of them did burn the city.

Of course, Attila did lay the Balkan, western France, and norther Italy to waste during his campagns. I bet the movie didn't show those.

	22-02-2002 23:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Eimrich movies are real bullshit. A president piloting a F16 and blasting evil Aliens ? no probs ! An american genius making in few hours a computer virus on an unknowned alien network ? For sure ! Gibson movies sucks too : Good American vs Evil bastard english during the independence war ?

I agree the Emmerich guy is a total moron, but he is a German and has only recently arrived in Hollywood.

I don't understand Mel's hate against the English.

	22-02-2002 23:06									#54
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Snowwhite and the Seven Dwarfs. Just miss out the eigth one then Not his fault he's wheelchair-bound.

	05-03-2002 19:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Serb What a bullshit.

Which part you think is bullshit?

	05-03-2002 21:16									#56
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Historical movies that get history wrong; sci-fi movies that get science wrong; other movies that get plain ordinary everyday facts wrong.

That's Hollywood I tell ya

	05-03-2002 21:24									#57
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blah blah blah....its entertainment...thats it. End of story. I don't care if the movie I watch is even semi-accurate. I just want to be entertained. If I wanted to learn some history I'd watch a documentary or read a book. Anyone who expects a hollywood movie to be historically accurate is the fool, not the people who made the movie. They know it's bs...but they don't care as long as it makes them money. And most of the movies criticized did exactly what they were intended to.

	05-03-2002 21:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Serb few examples made by jamorobo in "Stop the America bashing" forum: Quote originaly posted by jamorobo: Saving private Rian = A fairy tale war where britian never existed and was never on the beaches. It portrays the americans valiently crusading on the beaches getting slaughted against overwelming enemys. where the truth was the omaha beach was so hard to takes as the US did not want to use any help from the british who offered: Now on to the Patriot A historian said " With their own record of killing 12 million American indians and surporting slavery 4 decades after britian abolished it, Americans wish to project their historical guilt on to someone else. " As you can see American just in its film industry has made alot of people unhappy. Esp the english by removing them and putting a large "Made in USA" it its place."

The British and the Americans landed on seperate beaches! That is historical fact! The US had "snorkel" tanks too, but the seas at Omaha were rougher on that day and ours sank. The brits could not possibly have offered effective help during this time period, the few hours during which the US forces were tied up on the beach because the British forces were too far away.

America killed 12 million Indians? Gee. Historians estimate that when Columbus landed there were 80 million people living in the western hemisphere. By the time the English landed there were only 10 million left. That's 10 million scatterd over BOTH continents, with the largest concentrations still being in what is now Mexico and Peru. By 1600 there were no more than 2 million natives living in the area of the current continental United States. So I guess we killed them all 6 times over. Either that or in our bloodlust we exterminated Mexico and Peru.

	05-03-2002 21:52									#59
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Not agree when movies pretends to have an historical aspects.

	06-03-2002 05:10									#60
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Of course those here who claim that movies can't get historical facts right will swear up and down that American Beauty is a true rendering of middle-class America.

Hint: it ain't.