06-03-2002 05:37									#61
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what really irks me is when they get military facts wrong. Most people don't care at all about the patriotism, etc. They'll be lucky if they can get who was fighting in the Revolutionary war right, much less whether the English butchered people

but its really bad when in Godzilla the display in the jet reads "harpoon" ( a air to ship missle) and the missle flying towards Madison square garden is clearly a maverick (IIRC) and it only takes 2 of them to blow the whole place up

	06-03-2002 07:31									#62
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i think it all has to do with the fact that directors, actors, and screen-writers make movies... these aren't historians or military tacticians or military engineers... they're just story-creators and presenters... some of them make good stories even if they are false, better than any historian could make.


thanks

	06-03-2002 07:33									#63
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Thank you, Albert.

	06-03-2002 07:54									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i think it all has to do with the fact that directors, actors, and screen-writers make movies... these aren't historians or military tacticians or military engineers... they're just story-creators and presenters... some of them make good stories even if they are false, better than any historian could make. thanks

I have to disagree.

Movies are made to entertain, but if it is going to portray a historical event even in the medium of entertainment, it has to reasonably accurate. You can maintain reasonable accuracy and still entertain the audience.

There is one old, old, movie that was produced for the propaganda purpose of white supremacy--Birth of a Nation, produced in 1915. It helped establish the myths of the Reconstruction era and wrongly justified why blacks needed to be kept in place by lynching and segregation.

	06-03-2002 08:05									#65
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you all know I think americans are generally dumb. but I think some of you here think americans are even more dumb than the rest of the world. Yes this pisses me off. I'm tired of all the anti-american talk around here. Are you telling me that Europeans are smarter than americans?

Yes I do believe americans are smart enough to realize that they aren't getting told the exact truth when they watch a fictional movie. Because american understand the meaning of the word fiction. They realize they are watching the movie for entertainment, not actual truth.

I find the notion that americans can't separate fact from fiction pretty insulting. Not to me (because I cannot be insulted), but to americans.

I expect apoligies to every american by some members of this thread by March 15, 2002.

	06-03-2002 08:53									#66
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Oh, c'mon MrFun! Even then BoN was vilified for it's racism and rewriting of history - well, except for Woodrow Wilson, who in an apoplytic (sp!) fit of white guilt said "It's like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all terribly true."

http://www.filmsite.org/birt.html

You might want to read about D. W. Griffiths answer to his critics, Intolerance, in which he explores the "themes of intolerance, man's inhumanity to man, hypocrisy, bigotry, religious hatred, persecution, discrimination and injustice achieved in all eras by entrenched political, social and religious systems."

http://www.filmsite.org/into.html

By the way, a bit off-topic here. Filmsite.org is a great movie site and should be visited by all fans of the medium. Check it out while you're there.

	06-03-2002 08:59									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Let´s face it Hollywood spews out as much propaganda as Nazi-Germany or the Soviets ever did. I don´t see any difference between say "The Patriot" and Leni Riefenstahl´s "Triumf des Willens" (Das dokument vom Reichsparteitag 1934) or Tag der Freiheit - Unsere Wehrmacht (Nürnberg 1935) or Sergei Eisensteins "Oktyabr" (October, 1927) or "Bronenosets Potyomkin" (Battleship Potemkin, 1925)

I can tell you one MASSIVE difference between those films and the Patriot... the other movies weren't telling stories, they were portraying events. The Patriot is an entirely different sort of film, more about storytelling WITH propaganda rather than straightforward propaganda. Further, what makes Triumph of the Will disturbing (and boring beyond all belief) is the fact that it is a painstaking portrait of an actual event rather than just a mythologization. Potemkin and The Patriot never claimed to be true even if they have historical bases. Triumph of the Will is fact and should be pointed out as such. Further, the Patriot is NOT trying to sell a message of political conquest like Triumph of the Will. The Patriot is made WELL after the fact. Blame it for historical innaccuracy all you like, you CAN'T claim its pushing a modern day United States genocide. Don't take these movies so seriously, they're quite obviously fictions, not at ALL comparable with Documentary work.

	06-03-2002 09:20									#68
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By far the worst historical goofs are in movies about the ancient times. I guess most people here saw galdiator (which won best film!). Remember the opening battle scene? How much it looked like a firefight (i.e, modern war) when the romans unleash their balista? and then Roman infantry advance with spears drawn (where are the gladius?), adn even more, as auxiliaries of cavalry in the time of Marcus Aurelius? I mean, a total bastardisation of Roman military tactics at that time. And the rest of the movie gets no better.

Moves about egypt are usually crap, as are movies on the middle ages and renaissence. But since these factss are less accecible and less popular, no one cares. Still, its sad that basic education of most americans on the Roman system will be based more on galdiator than history...

	06-03-2002 09:34									#69
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Some posters think that it's impossible to blend factual accuracy in with "storytelling." I posit that it is a serious misconception.

Just because something is fiction - unless it's fantasy - doesn't mean it can ignore factual accuracy. Films are based on a concept called "suspension of disbelief." If films get their facts wrong it will just serve to weaken this "suspension of disbelief," particularly if these facts are fundamental to the genre.

This threshold is personal with some persons willing to ignore a lot of facts to be entertained.

It seems to me though that a good scriptwriter or director can weave entertainment and facts into a seamless whole. Of course that takes skill and talent.

	06-03-2002 10:35									#70
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I saw a show where it depicted the Americans liberating Amersterdam. Dammit, it was the Canadians!!!

	06-03-2002 10:56									#71
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The problem is in blurring the lines between fiction and non-fiction. When the premise of the film is history and fundamental changes to that history is made, fallacies are perpetuated. How's a pre-pubescent to know that the British did what was portrayed as being done by the Americans in U-571? Misleading historical movies combine with little teaching of history combine to produce myths.

This is reflected by americans who come onto Apolyton and elsewhere telling everyone that they saved our arses

BTW, i don't think Yanks are any more stupid than anywhere else. In fact, i think the filmmakers insult their audience by presuming them to be stupid in the first place.

As for suspending disbelief, a certain amount of accuracy is required even for fiction. Starship Troopers was difficult to enjoy when they traverse the galaxy to produce 20th century small arms!! What, not even a tank or two? No big mofo bombs to soften them up a bit first? It was the most absurd movie in my living memory

	06-03-2002 11:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Some posters think that it's impossible to blend factual accuracy in with "storytelling." I posit that it is a serious misconception. Just because something is fiction - unless it's fantasy - doesn't mean it can ignore factual accuracy. Films are based on a concept called "suspension of disbelief." If films get their facts wrong it will just serve to weaken this "suspension of disbelief," particularly if these facts are fundamental to the genre. This threshold is personal with some persons willing to ignore a lot of facts to be entertained. It seems to me though that a good scriptwriter or director can weave entertainment and facts into a seamless whole. Of course that takes skill and talent.

I agree with you on that! Kind of goes with my earlier statement about how you can still entertain and be reasonably accurate.

	06-03-2002 15:30									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Yes I do believe americans are smart enough to realize that they aren't getting told the exact truth when they watch a fictional movie. Because american understand the meaning of the word fiction. They realize they are watching the movie for entertainment, not actual truth.

If movies are the only cultural reference then people could have a biased view of the world.

in 1992 we welcomed American students from a city near Philadelphia (I don't remember the name). They were learning french and have seen some old french film apparently. And many were quite suprised to see that we were wearing clothes somewhat like them (not old south-french clothes) and we have thing like TV, phone ...

The worse is cultural stereotype we can watch on some US movie. And those stereotype I can read them on this forum.

	06-03-2002 15:35									#74
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and Europeans don't have similar unreasonable stereotypes of americans?

not all of us are gun-toting bible thumpers (although I do own a gun ). I don't own a bible though

yet I hear this constantly from Europeans. So I really don't think it is reasonable to accuse americans of being the only people that stereotype people from around the world.

and not all of us ride around in big suv's either. many people enjoy driving small cars.

that is all.

	06-03-2002 15:41									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lung The problem is in blurring the lines between fiction and non-fiction. When the premise of the film is history and fundamental changes to that history is made, fallacies are perpetuated. How's a pre-pubescent to know that the British did what was portrayed as being done by the Americans in U-571? Misleading historical movies combine with little teaching of history combine to produce myths. This is reflected by americans who come onto Apolyton and elsewhere telling everyone that they saved our arses BTW, i don't think Yanks are any more stupid than anywhere else. In fact, i think the filmmakers insult their audience by presuming them to be stupid in the first place.

quote: As for suspending disbelief, a certain amount of accuracy is required even for fiction. Starship Troopers was difficult to enjoy when they traverse the galaxy to produce 20th century small arms!! What, not even a tank or two? No big mofo bombs to soften them up a bit first? It was the most absurd movie in my living memory

Starship Troopers was fantastic! It's a movie that shows the dangers of fascism. All the steel jaws and blue eyes, the gung ho retoric, the nazi like outfits, and still you feel for them in their fight against evil. It doesn't show you right and wrong, it leaves you without a clear conclusion. It's very over the top, but doesn't ridicule. That's why the general audience didn't like it.

	06-03-2002 15:49									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and Europeans don't have similar unreasonable stereotypes of americans? not all of us are gun-toting bible thumpers (although I do own a gun ). I don't own a bible though yet I hear this constantly from Europeans. So I really don't think it is reasonable to accuse americans of being the only people that stereotype people from around the world. and not all of us ride around in big suv's either. many people enjoy driving small cars. that is all.

I saw a movie called 'The Bible and Gun club', a black and white movie about sweaty traveling salesmen who sold bibles to the lady of the house, and guns to the man of the house, to 'protect his family'.

It was somewhat, stereotyping.

	06-03-2002 16:11									#77
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The problem isn't so much the facts as the general "feel" of the movie. Or, rather, the general feel of a lot of popular movies (or any popular media. My image of the old Gaulls are from Asterix. ) over an extended period.

How is the general public's feel about the Vietnam War? Could the movie industry possibly have something to do with that? How about the old west? The 1920's?

If people are so smart that popular culture doesn't influence them, then why are vikings depicted with horned helmets?

	06-03-2002 16:12									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus Starship Troopers was fantastic! It's a movie that shows the dangers of fascism. All the steel jaws and blue eyes, the gung ho retoric, the nazi like outfits, and still you feel for them in their fight against evil. It doesn't show you right and wrong, it leaves you without a clear conclusion. It's very over the top, but doesn't ridicule. That's why the general audience didn't like it.

100% agree. The film is inspired from a book of a writer exposing an Fascist utopia. But slighty ironical.

The main point of the film, isn't not only the action, but the message : beware to propaganda !

This film don't have so much success in USA. Why ?

	06-03-2002 16:34									#79
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Bondetamp,

Vikings didn't wear horns?

Well, shows my point that over time, people will slowly confuse fiction for fact, when represented in a factual manner.

Zobo,

Like I said, audiences are used to clear pictures about what's right and what's wrong. When a picture leaves that in the middle, people get confused and discontent.

Don't know if Starship Troopers did any worse in the USA than outside it? Is that a fact?

	06-03-2002 17:05									#80
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U571

Didn't anyone read the text after the film? It mentioned that it was the Brits that captured the first decoding machine and that the events depicted in the movie was based on an incident later on in the war.


Some of you look to Hollywood films to comfrim your well entrenched bias against the US. You take the films seriously when Americans watch them for entertainment. The question becomes, if these movies are so terrible why are you watching them. And if you don't watch them how can you sit and say they are inaccurate. Is it that you take someone elses' word for it? And no one is forcing you to watch them. Doesn't your country have any movies that you can be watching instead of the evil propaganda that comes from the seedy smoke filled rooms of Hollywood?

It has been said already. If you watched U571 for an in depth understanding of submarine warefare or for an accurate depiction of history, then will be disappointed. I mean come on, a cook that can also be used to navigate the sub?

BTW: when an American says that we saved your Ass in WWII they are usually looking to get a response out of you or they aren't very up to date on history. Either way, you are being very naive to take the bait.

	06-03-2002 17:16									#81
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Of course those here who claim that movies can't get historical facts right will swear up and down that American Beauty is a true rendering of middle-class America. Hint: it ain't.

Of course it isn't.

Happiness is.

	07-03-2002 02:12									#82
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quote: Originally posted by The Third Man Further, the Patriot is NOT trying to sell a message of political conquest like Triumph of the Will. The Patriot is made WELL after the fact. Blame it for historical innaccuracy all you like, you CAN'T claim its pushing a modern day United States genocide.

Fair enough. Can I still blame it for being a massive, steaming pile of elephant dung?

	07-03-2002 03:04									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus Starship Troopers was fantastic! It's a movie that shows the dangers of fascism. All the steel jaws and blue eyes, the gung ho retoric, the nazi like outfits, and still you feel for them in their fight against evil. It doesn't show you right and wrong, it leaves you without a clear conclusion. It's very over the top, but doesn't ridicule. That's why the general audience didn't like it.

Yes, and this is another bone of contention i have with this movie! It's message was so damned obvious i felt it was being rammed down my throat. It was Robocop in space It seemed like a message to dimwitted teenagers, which i suppose it was It also seemed more like an unfunny spoof than a subtle message on the dangers of fanaticism.

Interestly though, i never noticed until i grew up the nazi-esque uniforms of Darth Vader's troops, although i think the point there was simply to insinuate that they were the bad guys.

	07-03-2002 03:15									#84
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I thought SST was pretty funny.
Yes very blatant on the theme, but so was the book and it was written for juveniles so we have to cut some slack there.
The new flashes were hilarious.
Nice TaTas.

But I too was very disappointed with those very unfuturistic weapons. It was hard enough to sustain belief even without that.

RAH

	07-03-2002 03:39									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Yes, and this is another bone of contention i have with this movie! It's message was so damned obvious i felt it was being rammed down my throat. It was Robocop in space It seemed like a message to dimwitted teenagers, which i suppose it was It also seemed more like an unfunny spoof than a subtle message on the dangers of fanaticism. Interestly though, i never noticed until i grew up the nazi-esque uniforms of Darth Vader's troops, although i think the point there was simply to insinuate that they were the bad guys.

Odd, I had thought that Heinlein was rather serious about some of his fascist ideas, he repeated them so often. In some ways the movie does seem to parody his ideas, but then he had no input into how it was made. ( He's dead isn't he? )

I once saw somebody compare the end scene of the first movie, when Luke and Hans get their medals, to "Triumph of the Will", supposedly because in the scene the ranks are formed up in neat columns facing a stark podium with tall lines towering upwards.

	11-03-2002 09:27									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Alynzia I'm always annoyed when movies gloss over a character being homosexual or bisexual just to make a story to please the majority. The guy in 'A Beautiful Mind' was gay.

I just saw A Beautiful Mind and thought it was a great movie, but I was shocked when I found out how much it distorted the life of John Nash.

The movie shows Nash getting married, having a kid, and the wife sticks by his side through the rough times and is there in the end when he gets the Nobel prize.

But one site, http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/...ians/Nash.html, I found had the following:

"During his time at MIT Nash began to have personal problems with his life which were in addition to the social difficulties he had always suffered. He met Eleanor Stier and they had a son, John David Stier, who was born on 19 June 1953. Nash did not want to marry Eleanor although she tried hard to persuade him. In the summer of 1954, while working for RAND, Nash was arrested in a police operation to trap homosexuals. He was dismissed from RAND.

One of Nash's students at MIT, Alicia Larde, became friendly with him and by the summer of 1955 they were seeing each other regularly. In 1956 Nash's parents found out about his continuing affair with Eleanor and about his son John David Stier. The shock may have contributed to the death of Nash's father soon after but even if it did not Nash may have blamed himself. In February of 1957 Nash married Alicia; by the autumn of 1958 she was pregnant but, a couple of months later near the end of 1958, Nash's mental state became very disturbed.

Norbert Wiener was one of the first to recognize that Nash's extreme eccentricities and personality problems were actually symptoms of a medical disorder. A long sad episode followed which included periods of hospital treatment, temporary recovery, then further treatment. Alicia eventually divorced Nash, although she continued to try to help him, and after a period of extreme mental torture he appeared to become lost to the world, removed from ordinary society, although he spent much of his time in the Mathematics Department at Princeton."

So the guy had two sons by two women, not one as portrayed in the movie.

Apparently, he does remarry Alicia., according to this article
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/Co...news/1467.shtml

Now I know this is a movie and I don't expect it to be completely accurate, but you got to wonder how his second son feels about it.

	11-03-2002 09:31									#87
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Two sons... two women... AND gay.

How did he manage that?

In what way was he gay? Are we talking actually here or did someone tell you that he was and you believed it?

	11-03-2002 09:38									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Two sons... two women... AND gay. How did he manage that? In what way was he gay? Are we talking actually here or did someone tell you that he was and you believed it?

Maybe the guy was just really horny.

The first article mentions that he was caught in a police raid on homosexuals and that's why he was fired from RAND.

It seems to be true. The BBC has a story about the debate about artistry over the facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/in...000/1809454.stm

"The New York Times critic who praised certain aspects of A Beautiful Mind also found that the story was "almost entirely counterfeit." "

	27-03-2002 18:18									#89
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I noticed a very stupid mistake in the movie "Evolution" last night... David Duchovny's character noted that the alien DNA was special because it had "ten base pairs", as opposed to us Earthlings with "four base pairs". It's clear what they meant to say, but in actually his scientist character just said that humans have a smaller genome than the smallest of viruses!

	27-03-2002 21:08									#90
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"Elvis played a helicopter pilot once. He made so many mistakes. We were just laughing at him."