25-02-2002 22:17									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Lots of nations sent forces to Afghanistan, though only a few sent forces for actual combat (USA, UK, France. perhaps Canada as well)

IIRC, of the four you named only the US and Canada sent regular gound forces in a combat role. Did France even send spec. ops troops? Did they run away or did they simply busy themselves by blowing up whatever Greenpeace demonstrators they could find?

	25-02-2002 22:39									#32
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Special troops ? Humm maybe for information, but not sure.
Logistic troops yes. We have still men in Afghanistan.
We sent some ships and one Nuclear Carrier (around the 20/30 september).

Don't forget we have better than sinking ecologist ships :
Eat cheese, frogs and snails, drink wine, sing songs, pretending to be more cultural advanced, and do sex with person of other sex.

Another stereotype ?

	25-02-2002 22:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Lots of nations sent forces to Afghanistan, though only a few sent forces for actual combat (USA, UK, France. perhaps Canada as well)

Canada sent 750 ground troops to fight along side the US troops, as well as spec ops (JTF2) and logistcs ships/planes. I think all of the other countries just contributed in logistics or spec ops only, or air in Britain's case.

	25-02-2002 23:07									#34
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Austria sent 60 soldiers to Afghanistan. In my opinion this is 60 too many. Helping America consolidating its worldwide hegemony is not worth a single drop of Austrian blood.

So no need to thank me, LOTM: If it depended on me, they wouldn´t be there.

	26-02-2002 00:15									#35
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quote: IIRC, of the four you named only the US and Canada sent regular gound forces in a combat role. Did France even send spec. ops troops?

Both France and Britain sent special ops units. The Britons even got in a fire fight (first of the war). And I also believe the UK sent forces to secure some key positions (thus making them combat troops and not peace keeping troops).

	26-02-2002 00:55									#36
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ZoboZeWarrior, no offense to you personally, but the French military has about the same glorious history as the ARVN. In fact the same jokes could be told about it. "Excellent rifles, never fired and only dropped once."

However, I'm sure that the forces they are contributing will refute history.

	26-02-2002 01:09									#37
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The French have a very long and proud military history, mind you. Far, far longer than that of most nations on earth, and with far more accomplisments.

	26-02-2002 01:11									#38
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I acknoweldge that Since Napoleon, we haven't ... heu ... an efficient militar ...
Yes, we must admit it ... By the way, we are making good weapons, too bad we have problems to use them

What hurts me, it isn't our lake of good generals, it's all stereotypes about french, I can read on this forum.

It remember western racial bullshit at the begin of the XX centuries just before the WW I.

	26-02-2002 01:16									#39
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How about WW1? The French didn't do bad at all. And prior to WW2, France's military was considered to be the world's most powerful. Furthermore, the French still make very sophisticated weapons and other military equipment.

	26-02-2002 01:27									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The French have a very long and proud military history, mind you. Far, far longer than that of most nations on earth, and with far more accomplisments.

Not exactly. For the entire Rennaissance period, France was the biggest power in Europe and was unable to project its power. England almost conquered the whole thing in the 15th century. They also got their collective butt handed to them in three successive wars with Germany.

	26-02-2002 01:42									#41
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Also note that even Napoleon wasn't really French. Corsica had only been conquered for a short time before Napoleon was born there.

Also, I don't think anybody is really critizing the French for bravery. Their chief problem historically has been an insistence on using ancient and obselete tactics. Thus, battles such as Agincourt and Dien Bien Phu predominate in the public perception of French ineptitude.

So in short, France's reputation is mostly because of uninventive leadership.

	26-02-2002 01:49									#42
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You beat me to it, Felch X, the French haven't been packing heat since Charlemagne.


It's worth noting that the ONLY French fleet victory EVER occured off the Virginia Capes in178?.


The Victory prevented the British from evacuating Cornwallis from Yorktown.

	26-02-2002 01:49									#43
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On another sidenote, some people in Germany feel offended because the fact that German special commandos are in Afghanistan has only been published several days ago. What a bullcrap I say, why should they tell us what exactly they are doing there? We knew there are German soldiers in Afghanistan, so what the heck. What next, will they be just as enraged when they find out about our soldiers actually wearing uniforms over there?

	26-02-2002 02:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior LOTM, your list is far from being complete !

I did not intend it to be complete but to highlight the most important contributions, - I did expect people here to add their own national efforts.

Re: Canadian casualties - considering how few US casualties there have been, it is hardly surprising that smaller forces have not had any.

Re: German diplomacy - Germany has a tremendous Afgan exile community, has had close contacts with many key afghan exiles. I dont have sources handy, but back in December there was extensive description in the press of the importance of Germany's role, not just as host of the Bonn conf, but in helping reach agreement.

Re:Brit diplomacy - has been very effctive and important, whatever names anyone chooses to call Tony Blair

Re:Smaller special forces - I note the contributions people have posted about here - ie Norway, Germany, and NZ. I mentioned UK as they are far larger and morfe significant, and Germany's main contribution has been diplomatic. Norway's troops presumably add special mountain expertise. I was hesitant about adding AUstralia, as there are others with propably equally large contingents, but my impression is that they were on the ground back in early November, before the fall of Kabul.

Re: Picking up slack for US forces in gulf. Not only in the Persian gulf, but also in Bosnia and Kosovo. IIUC that has been France's principle contribution, though they also have a few troops in ISAF.
And then there was the NATO AWACS planes that flew air defense over the US in the fall. Definitely dramatic, to anyone who know the history of our alliances.

Re: Contributions in terms of arresting people, cutting finances, etc. That is really a different front of the war, and deserves a seperate thread. Let us simply note here that many countries that are not involved in afganistan are very important in the covert/police war.

LOTM

	26-02-2002 02:14									#45
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Re:france - despite the controversy about the performance of the French army in May-June 1940, france certainly has an extensive military history. French forces are large and well-trained - i left them out becuase they have no particularly visible role in the current war. they sent a carrier, but AFAIK, never dropped any bombs , unlike brits, who at least launched a few cruise missile, and unlike french air force in gulf war. I understand they have some peacekeepers in ISAF, but far fewer than UK. And I see posted here that they sent some special forces, but not enough to put them in a seperate class from Australia, Germany, etc.

France's main contribution thus far has been in taking up slack in the balkans, and of course their key role in breaking up al qaeeda cells in europe. (but as i said above id like to discuss that elsewhere)


LOTM

	26-02-2002 02:18									#46
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Could someone make a statement about Germany using special forces in Afghanistan at last?

AFAIK, the US, Britain and Germany are the only countries who do that. Just that our commandos have only been revealed several days ago. Isn't that exciting!!

	26-02-2002 03:10									#47
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Active Troops Reserve Troops Heavy Tanks Armored Infantry Vehicles Air planes Helicopters Major Warships Amphibious, Mine, & Support Ships Military Budget (Billions


Belgium 47,000 276,000 334 1,031 314 86 2 15 $3

Portugal 54,000 210,000 186 354 164 40 14 14 $2

Greece 171,000 291,000 1,735 2,324 548 228 22 40 $4

Interesting comparison of countries with the same populations no...? The difference between living in the SE edge of Europe and not.

	26-02-2002 04:30									#48
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You need to distinguish between the peacekeeping operation and the warfighting operation. The Australian special forces are part of the warfighting operation. They have their own area of ops South of Kandahar.

	26-02-2002 06:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not exactly. For the entire Rennaissance period, France was the biggest power in Europe and was unable to project its power. England almost conquered the whole thing in the 15th century. They also got their collective butt handed to them in three successive wars with Germany.

This seems familiar Dino...

Do I need to accuse you of plagiarism?

	26-02-2002 06:36									#50
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quote: They fought lots of wars really badly. For the entire Rennaissance France was the single biggest Power in Europe, yet it seemed unable to project its power. Frigging England (like 1/3 the size) practically conquered the whole thing in the 15th century. The French got their asses handed to them in three successive wars with Germany, from 1870 to 1945. Et Cetera

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ance#post687248

	26-02-2002 07:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse This seems familiar Dino... Do I need to accuse you of plagiarism?

Oh, sod off, Frenchie.

	26-02-2002 07:34									#52
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Hell of a memory KH.

I don't remember starting that thread at all.

	26-02-2002 07:42									#53
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It was only a month and a half ago.

	26-02-2002 07:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Do I need to accuse you of plagiarism?

Dino pays KittyHorse his royalties.

	26-02-2002 08:07									#55
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Of course you forgot to thank Russia.

*sigh*

	26-02-2002 08:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of course you forgot to thank Russia. *sigh*

for what? the weather they have?

	26-02-2002 08:19									#57
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Nuke them Vagabond! hihihihi

	26-02-2002 08:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Nuke them Vagabond! hihihihi

Thier arsenal is old and decaying & the usable remains are being sold off by the Russian mafia. I doubt that Russia could nuke anyone even if they wished to.

	26-02-2002 08:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of course you forgot to thank Russia.

They only gave us access and transit because the expected us to get our butts kick like they did. None the less they were instrumental in allowing and supporting the campaign in northern Afghanistan, and with diplomatic efforts.

	26-02-2002 08:28									#60
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We show up at all America's wars and what thanks do we get