26-02-2002 09:01									#31
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I was reading today about just how much money the US and private organization spent to help the US athletes better prepare. Over 80 million more than before the prior olympics. The results were overwhelming. Some athletes, (those that got extra assistance) said they finally felt on par with the European teams. During that same time the money spent on Russian athletes was considerably reduced. The results were also predictable.

So look inward before casually blaming everyone else for your own problems.

I still go back to an official release from the Russian Government. "THEY DON"T FEAR US ANYMORE" That kind of atttitude is not going to help athletes perform better.

Hopefully they will make some improvements before the next games. The competition is always welcome.

RAH

	26-02-2002 09:06									#32
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It wasn’t I who started personal attacks.

Imran Siddiqui did you ever hear that someone of the Russians said that it is sucks to be an American?

	26-02-2002 09:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Cowards.

quote: It wasn’t I who started personal attacks.

Bull****!
Keep it up, and you are toast. If it was just this thread, I might cut you some slack... but you pull this same crap in almost every post you make. So chill, or be chilled!

	26-02-2002 09:42									#34
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Oops, forget about this one.
Anyway, the amount of attacks on Russians is a hundred times greater. This entire tread is insult to Russian sportsmen’s and to all Russian people.

	26-02-2002 09:45									#35
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Nice try, Serb

	26-02-2002 09:46									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Oops, forget about this one. Anyway, the amount of attacks on Russians is a hundred times greater. This entire tread is insult to Russian sportsmen’s and to all Russian people.

Yeah... you did forget...
And are you forgeting the FACT that Russia got CAUGHT cheating... are you denying they cheated????? Why is it an insult to talk about the "facts"... Are you saying that everybody should ignore the FACT that you got caught...

	26-02-2002 09:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by rah So look inward before casually blaming everyone else for your own problems.

Sure, look inward. But the problem is that in this case there is much to be looked at outward.

quote: I still go back to an official release from the Russian Government. "THEY DON"T FEAR US ANYMORE" That kind of atttitude is not going to help athletes perform better.

Don't take it so literally. Just replace "fear" by "reckon with", and this phrase will sound correct. I hope you won't deny that the stance of a country as a whole reflects on how its athletes are treated. This is just in the human nature, for much you may want to claim that everyone is equal.

quote: Hopefully they will make some improvements before the next games. The competition is always welcome.

I also hope. Now the oligarchs will be obliged to sponsor the sports.

	26-02-2002 10:04									#38
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Sure, look inward. But the problem is that in this case there is much to be looked at outward.

sure, just blame it on the french

	26-02-2002 10:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower sure, just blame it on the french

No, the French are good people, if somewhat misguided. Unfortunately, some of their women are a little bit hysteric. Blame Canada!

	26-02-2002 10:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Upon what evidence do you base this?

Common sense and a little bit of imagination.

	26-02-2002 10:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And are you forgeting the FACT that Russia got CAUGHT cheating... are you denying they cheated????? Why is it an insult to talk about the "facts"... Are you saying that everybody should ignore the FACT that you got caught...

Just for the record:
Not all the facts you think are facts are actually facts.

	26-02-2002 10:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Not all the facts you think are facts are actually facts.

While that may indeed be the case... it is a FACT that they got caught cheating

	26-02-2002 10:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No, the French are good people, if somewhat misguided. Unfortunately, some of their women are a little bit hysteric. Blame Canada!

Don't blame us! To quote Ray Jutkins:

quote: Canadians are a simple, happy, child-like people; living in peace and harmony in the perpetual twilight of their frozen land. Crime is unknown in their nomadic villages. They hunt and fish with implements they carve themselves out of the scarce wood they encounter in their wanderings, and many an explorer from our "superior" "sophisticated" society has found comfort and hospitality in their igloos

	26-02-2002 11:06									#44
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And they like something where people fevereshly scrap ice like deranged monkeys in heat and they call it a "sport" - curling to be precise.

	26-02-2002 11:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Don't blame us! To quote Ray Jutkins: quote: Canadians are a simple, happy, child-like people; living in peace and harmony in the perpetual twilight of their frozen land. Crime is unknown in their nomadic villages. They hunt and fish with implements they carve themselves out of the scarce wood they encounter in their wanderings, and many an explorer from our "superior" "sophisticated" society has found comfort and hospitality in their igloos

Then what the hell are you doing in figure skating? As paiktis22 pointed out, curling would be much more natural for you.

	26-02-2002 11:37									#46
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Figure skating is our traditional mating dance.

	26-02-2002 11:43									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 And they like something where people fevereshly scrap ice like deranged monkeys in heat and they call it a "sport" - curling to be precise.

No, we call that particular sport 'cleaning the snow off the car windows in winter'.

No country is immune from blind, illogical nationalism. Some people take sports far, far too seriously. Countries in general, not just Russia exclusively, use sports as propaganda. Superpowers like USA, Russia and China are not immune. Some would say they are among the worst culprits.

If I am not mistaken some languages do not make the distinction between government propaganda and business propaganda (advertising). So it is with surprise that I hear the Russians decrying the commercialization of the games.

It is similarly surprising to hear of Russians decrying the influx of professionals to the games. The old Soviet Bloc wrote the rules on state sponsored 'amateurs' which forced the IOC to allow other professionals to compete.

	26-02-2002 11:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Figure skating is our traditional mating dance.

Finally I understand why the figure skating gold was so important to you.

	26-02-2002 11:50									#49
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If we'd lost it would have been four more years before we had the chance to get some again.

	26-02-2002 15:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred No country is immune from blind, illogical nationalism. Some people take sports far, far too seriously. Countries in general, not just Russia exclusively, use sports as propaganda. Superpowers like USA, Russia and China are not immune.

That’s what I’m talking about.
USA made politic action from those Olympic Games. From the begging till closing ceremony, all this “Light the fire within”, all those rising of flag, singing of hymn is constant chest pumping. Look everyone, we are super nation. Did any one of you saw on any previous Olympic Games, a rising of flag or singing a hymn of home country on beginning/closing ceremony? To do so is disrespect to others countries. You forget that Olympic Games are the SPORT events, not POLITICAL events. And USA used any means to gain as many medals as possible. If this means include unfair ref’s, all kind of scandals based on doping tests, who cares? It is always possible to proclaim Russians as paranoids who are jealous because they lost the Cold war.

quote: And are you forgeting the FACT that Russia got CAUGHT cheating... are you denying they cheated????? Why is it an insult to talk about the "facts"... Are you saying that everybody should ignore the FACT that you got caught...

Russians has another nice saying- “Kto ishet tot vsegda naydet”. It means- the men who want to find something, sooner or later will find it.
Russian team consisted of about 170 people. Do you heard about any scandal in sports were we was no competitors for Americans? For example why our skate-boards team was not checked a dozens of times as for example skitters? All scandals was about sports were we are the major competitor, it was removal of competitors and it has nothing common with sport.

	26-02-2002 15:31									#51
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower I can't be bothered to waste time translating what you said

I can do it for you.
"Poputnogo vetra v gorbatyuy spinu"- It means if you have not even a small chance to achieve your goal, it does not matter what you gone do, you’ll never achieve your goal.

	26-02-2002 17:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond May I comment on this. What you mention may be just one of the aspects that affected how Russia perceived the Olimpic Games. It would be very incorrect to reduce it all to this single aspect. The problem is that Russia received an outrageous treatment at this olympiad. The Canadian case alone, even disregarding other scandals, is more than enough to justify the above statement.

IF the Russians really feel this way then get the Russian skaters to hand in their gold medals in protest.

	26-02-2002 17:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Serb And USA used any means to gain as many medals as possible. If this means include unfair ref’s, all kind of scandals based on doping tests, who cares?

Hmmmm... A French judge admits she made a deal with the Russians to trade votes, and some Russians get caught blood doping... If you subsitute Russian instead of USA in the above, you would be correct... based on the facts of what happened

You don't have any "facts" to back up your claim, but the facts do point to the Russians cheating...

What fantasy world do you live in...

	26-02-2002 18:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Serb You forget that Olympic Games are the SPORT events, not POLITICAL events.

When I remember Olympic games in the time of cold war, countries like USSR and Eastern Germany always treated Olympics not as sport, but political events. OTOH, the western countries did the same, see the boycott of the Olympics in Moscow. Personally I think, Olympics are all: sport, political and commercial events.

quote: And USA used any means to gain as many medals as possible.

That is basically, what Olympics are for.

quote: If this means include unfair ref’s, all kind of scandals based on doping tests, who cares?

Umm... unfair refs? Are you talking about figure skating, or what? And doping... who got caught? Americans? No.

quote: Russians has another nice saying- “Kto ishet tot vsegda naydet”. It means- the men who want to find something, sooner or later will find it.

That is what the bible says too.

Serb, nobody tries to blame all Russians, that would be stupid. And right, the title of this thread is discriminating. But you should try to admit the fact, that 2 Russians got caught. Period. Personally I have no problem with Muehlegg (German running for Spain) getting caught. I like clean sport, and once they were caught doping, they deserved their penalties.

	26-02-2002 18:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Don't take it so literally. Just replace "fear" by "reckon with", and this phrase will sound correct. I hope you won't deny that the stance of a country as a whole reflects on how its athletes are treated. This is just in the human nature, for much you may want to claim that everyone is equal. I also hope. Now the oligarchs will be obliged to sponsor the sports.

I'll give you the translation, that is possible in the context that it was used. It sounded like the Old Russia with it's threatening ways, which sounded silly at the time. So it might have had a different meaning.

I have yet to see any proof that any athletes were treated unfairly.

And I hope they feel more obliged to sponsor.

"Russians has another nice saying- “Kto ishet tot vsegda naydet”. It means- the men who want to find something, sooner or later will find it. " I thought that referred to the old KGB and not sports.

RAH

	26-02-2002 19:44									#56
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"I hope you won't deny that the stance of a country as a whole reflects on how its athletes are treated."

I deny it. Germany's athletes are treated well and they haven't been belligerent for nigh on 60 years.

In fact, did anybody hear anything about the German competitors? It's a conspiracy!

	26-02-2002 19:46									#57
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There's always that little sliver of doubt, though. You know; the one that's saying: "give them the gold before they ask for the Sudetenland".

	26-02-2002 20:08									#58
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The truth is between, as always. Every country dopes, and you know about that. Russians made a lot of mistakes mostly not by sportsman, but by mans who was in charge. Those man were unable to defend Russian position.
Do you really think that Russians do not have doctors in their team, to determinate that a sportsman in not proper condition? Do you really think that team doctors before the contest were unable to determinate that blood test after contests will show doping’s use? What do you think our doctors are idiots or they wanted a scandal?
What about South Korean short tracker?

All yours so called facts are no facts for me, those facts based on brake of rules. The blood tests of Lazutina were made after the same tests were taken from Danilova. It’s a brake of rules. Only one sportsman from every team must be tested. But further, about results of those tests (btw results do not shows the dopes only 0.8% hemoglobin above average) our team was informed only before 15 minutes until the start of the race and our team was unable to make a substitute and was removed from race. From our men skier was took blood for blood test three times more than normal, it hapenns before hour until he run. This test showed nothing, but can you run good if a glass of your's blood was pumped from you? And so on.
You are afraid of competition.
Cowards once again.

	26-02-2002 20:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Every country dopes, and you know about that.

No I don't... and just because the Russians do, doesn't mean that everybody does...

quote: Russians made a lot of mistakes mostly not by sportsman, but by mans who was in charge. Those man were unable to defend Russian position.

What did these men in charge do... put a gun to their heads to cheat. A person who breaks the rules to enhance their own performance is a cheater... it's that simple. And they got caught red handed. Do you deny that they cheated? Are you that blind?

quote: What do you think our doctors are idiots or they wanted a scandal?

Hmmm... they must be. The test results are clear. They cheated.

quote: All yours so called facts are no facts for me

That is because you are blind to the truth. They cheated, and the tests prove it. Feel free to bury your head in the sand if you wish.
Your problem...

quote: Cowards once again.

Ahhhh... so you resort to personal insults again. It must be because you have no FACTS to back up your moronic position.

Your argument is classic...
We didn't cheat... (The tests prove differently)
You cheat... (No proof)

	26-02-2002 20:37									#60
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quote: The truth is between, as always. Every country dopes, and you know about that.

Actually in Canada while an individual may chose this route we here have an anti doping additude...

Ben Johnson for example did not come back a hero for his choice in fact Canadians were collectively shamed by it.

Which begs the question how were Russian dope positive atheletes treated on thier return?