28-02-2002 20:52									#1
	How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism? Enter the AD-FREE zone

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=43320

Inspired by this Apolyton thread,I'm asking this question to all of you who replied "Nazi party" to one of the 50+ questions.

Someone asked

"If you had the choice between the Nazi Party and the Communist Party, which one would you vote? No abstaining, you have to decide for one."

To my surprise, several people gave answers like "Nazis probably", "If back then, Nazis" and "Communists would have messed things worse."

Since all of us know what hell the national socialists brought to so many peoples of Europe (and that includes my own people), I find it highly disgusting how there can be people who prefer an ultra-reactionary totalitarian authoritarian and anti-humanitarian regime, that is made of bigoted, racist polemy over a system that has economic equality of all people of a society to its goal. The reasons can't be lower than economic orientation (like "better be rich at the expense of a million dead than just as poor as the guys who would usually work for me" or so, I can't imagine anything else), or stubbornly capitalism-based burgeois upbringing, which makes me feel really sad about so-called advanced western society.

Given America had 2 big enemies before 1991, and those would be Nazi Germany and then the USSR... quite honest, which ones were the worst? Those going about killing and slaughtering in the name of racism and a reactionary oligarchy or those committing worldwide power-oriented policies (just as the US did) and had the survival as well as a fundamental amount of wealth for each citizen as their goal?

But then, people might say "Hey, we're not talking about the USSR's KP, but about the Communist Party in Germany back in the 30's!!!". What the heck? How can you even suspect that the German communists had worse goals than their colleagues at the other side of the economic spectre? Even if they had messed the economy worse than it was (and they'd never have done that, they'd just have united with the USSR and stuff, who knows ), it just couldn't go any worse than it turned out in the end.

To be quite honest, I'm shocked. Confess and justify!!

	28-02-2002 20:57									#2
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Communism is just as bad as National Socialism (dont you mean Fascism?)

I would probably go Nazi tho. Simply because of COmmunist harsh policies. Made you feel like ****, and you could be one of 20,000 people every year forcibly sent to siberia, to "Settle" it. Sure the nazi's were bad. But comon?

	28-02-2002 20:58									#3
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I hardly consider communism a humanitarian regime..


Ever seen a bread line at your local store???? Fixed prices?

	28-02-2002 20:59									#4
	Re: How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Those going about killing and slaughtering in the name of racism and a reactionary oligarchy

This is different from the early days of the USSR in what way exactly?

	28-02-2002 21:06									#5
	Re: Re: How can people prefer National Socialism over Communism? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This is different from the early days of the USSR in what way exactly?

Well of course there were millions of murdered people in the USSR under Stalin too.

However, the Holocaust has its unique characteristics, is is the first genocide made with "industrial perfection". Also the clear decision to exterminate all Jews under Nazi rule (final solution - Wannsee Konferenz) cannot be compared IMO with mass murdering in other countries. You can say that plays no role for the victims, but I think it was a new dimension of terror...

	28-02-2002 21:07									#6
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National Socialism is inherently bad. It glorifies hate of others and pursues the death of those who are not wanted.

The communist regime in the USSR was just as bad, but that doesn't mean that communism is inherently bad. It doesn't work, but it's not a hatefull ideoligy like nazism.

	28-02-2002 21:14									#7
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Nazism/fascism and Soviet-style communism (ie stalinism) is equally bad. But the question is absurd, it´s like asking: If you had to choose between being blind and being deaf which should you choose? Or if you must eat either a big bowl of snot or a big bowl of fieces, which should you choose?

How come I´m not at all surprised that FG choose nazism?

quote: Originally posted by Faded Glory I would probably go Nazi tho. Simply because of COmmunist harsh policies. Made you feel like ****, and you could be one of 20,000 people every year forcibly sent to siberia, to "Settle" it. Sure the nazi's were bad. But comon?

Harsh policies? You say yourself that Nazism is as bad as communism. And what´s the difference between being sent to Siberia and being sent to Treblinka?

quote: Ever seen a bread line at your local store????

Ever seen the bread line in Theresienstadt or Auschwitz?

	28-02-2002 21:17									#8
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Oh if I were a Jew I'd probably pick Communism (although I might just shoot myself before pick either in that scenario ), but since I'm basically of English descent - a race the Nazis had no problem with, I figure I'd basically be OK.

Since I'd be OK, my next step is looking at numbers of murders committed by each regime.

Let's be "generous" and say the Nazis killed 12 million. That's but a drop in the bucket compared to how many millions were killed by Stalin and Mao.

Further, under Nazism, there were chances for economic advancement - not so under communism, unless of course you were one of the societal elite, ie a high ranking Pary member

Being German, though, Ecthelion, I can understand why you have problems with this rational, but to me, communism is much, much worse.

	28-02-2002 21:31									#9
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Etchelion,

Are we talking about what ideoligy you would prefer, or where you would have prefered to be living at the time?

	28-02-2002 21:34									#10
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Floyd - it's not only the numbers of people they killed, also the way they did it and the intention...

Stalin and the like accepted the dtarvation of many many people in oder to industrialis, to focus manpower onto manufacturing steel and such... Hitler and pals did it intentionally and with industrial perfection, as BeBro stated, just in order to get rid of supposedly inferior people.

FG - one in 20 to be sent to Siberia? OVer at us you would have been one in 10 being defamed by your neighbours and sent to a concentration camp. Apart from that, how do you want to know that one in 20 East Europeans was sent to Siberia? That's a slight exaggeration of the facts

Kamrat X - why are they equally bad? Just the fact the rulers of the East European regimes that called themselves communist (but weren't) killed many people doesn't mean that so did the communist party in Germany back in the 30s. I'm sure the question in The Question Thread had a certain goal, namely to stress the situation in Germany in the '30s. And even if not, I think that is a very interesting point to consider.

Imagine you're a German worker in 1932. Do you vote for those who promise you bread and work, or for those who promise you bread, work, racial purity in your society, worldwide revenge for the 1919 debacle, and kick your Jewish neighbours out of their social environment?

As I have just put it, Nazis might indeed sound more seducing, but there's always the fact they were going to state a war and never made it secret. The only time when Europe might have been allowed to think there wasn't going to be war was in '83 of all, since in that year Hitler achieved many territorial demand goals without a gunshot. Apart from that, why would you want your country in a war against great powers?

	28-02-2002 21:47									#11
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once more:

Ecthelion,

Are we talking about what ideoligy you would prefer, or where you would have prefered to be living at the time?

makes a difference.

	28-02-2002 21:56									#12
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People are tragic.

	28-02-2002 21:57									#13
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I'd prefer to be a Nazi than some illogical communist.

	28-02-2002 21:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus Etchelion, Are we talking about what ideoligy you would prefer, or where you would have prefered to be living at the time?

That's actually a very interesting question. I think each of us shuld evaluate both cases.

I, for one, would say that back then I would have gone right int othe trap and voted National Socialist, there is no way to deny that. I can be quite open for polemy, and people of today who claim they're so resistant only do that because they think they have learned a lot from their history lessons. But when it coems to responsibility, they act in just the same ways. Noone living today can claim he would have resisted the urge. Not YOU, either! (not Drekkus personally but YOU that you are reading this!)

In retrospective, the Communists wouldn't have done it worse, there was no way to do it worse. And THOSE communists, gfighting for the ideals of Luxemburg and Liebknecht not Stalin, would have done a great job for the people of Central and East Europe, I am sure.

My own views seem to tend to the left nowadays. And though I despise the work that was done by so-called socialist forces in the time from 1945-1990 in Central Europe and from the 20s on in the USSR, I still think that real socialism can exist without suffering. The way that leads there is stony, and the people that live in our democracies are not responsible enough to take that way, and that probably includes myself.

	28-02-2002 22:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I'd prefer to be a Nazi than some illogical communist.

Killing 50 million people in a war that would probably be lost in the end is logical to you?

I'll remember that one...

	28-02-2002 22:28									#16
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If I would have to choose to live in nazi germany or stalinist russia, I'd pick nazi germany. My blond innocent looks would have made me about the last person to be destroyed.

Talking ideologies, can someone seriously claim nazism is better? To believe in something that claims that certain people should be destroyed because of their race?? Fascism is sick, but nazism is even worse. Some people have been brainwashed beyond repair here.

	28-02-2002 22:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Killing 50 million people in a war that would probably be lost in the end is logical to you? I'll remember that one...

Huh? Who said anything about wanting to kill 50 million people?

	28-02-2002 22:43									#18
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Boddington's -

1) 6 million were killed in camps. The figure is controversial, but it's a fact they killed masses in camps, intentionally.

2) War means dead people. Warfare with air force means many dad people, especially if the bombings are carried out in a carpet-bombing style, such as the Germans did in Coentry and London, and such as Americans and English did in every German industrial city.

3) The war in the East was "a war of destruction" as Hitler called it. They had orders to kill political officers, as was the intent of the war to eradicate allegedly inferior people in order to create "breathing room" ("Lebensraum") for future and present Germans. They destroyed villages and cities without a sign of enemy resistance, and killed hundrds of civilians for each German soldier killed by Partisans on formerly Soviet territory.

Slavs and Jews were equally persecuted, dported and killed by industrial measurements, the figures go into millions...

4) War also means dead soldiers, and the way some countries organised their armies (not only the USSR, also the German armies consisted of rather young, hardly trained men and boys towards the end...) meant millions of casualties.

	28-02-2002 22:44									#19
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And, before I forget it, war was what they were heading for all the time.

	28-02-2002 22:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus If I would have to choose to live in nazi germany or stalinist russia, I'd pick nazi germany. My blond innocent looks would have made me about the last person to be destroyed. Talking ideologies, can someone seriously claim nazism is better? To believe in something that claims that certain people should be destroyed because of their race?? Fascism is sick, but nazism is even worse. Some people have been brainwashed beyond repair here.

Well then, it seems most people here find a Stalinist regime to be worse due to deportation and starvation.

Any official figures about people being randomly killed or deported to Siberia? To be quite honest, I doubt that the lack of freedom for the individual was so much worse than in Nazi Germany. That doesn't apply for the time of the Russian civil war though.

Besides, who is talking about Stalinism? We still have to consider the future of a communist-ruled Germany in the 30s. Those guys had absolutely no connection to Stalin, nor was there any necessity to make people starve, since the German economy already had a *certain* standard, and there was industry as well...

	28-02-2002 22:51									#21
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quote: ) 6 million were killed in camps. The figure is controversial, but it's a fact they killed masses in camps, intentionally.

Actually, I believe 6 million is the number of Jews killed. Factoring in Roma, homosexuals, communists, and so on, the real number of people killed in camps is (IIRC) something like 12 million.

	28-02-2002 23:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Harsh policies? You say yourself that Nazism is as bad as communism. And what´s the difference between being sent to Siberia and being sent to Treblinka?

Yes.....but Communist's butchered way more than the fascists. And all that crap about ethnic cleansing the jews. Well, the Communists killed there share of jews. And dotn forget, if you were an Uzbek, or Chechen.....tsk...tsk...you were saying? Racial hatred? Both were festering with it. But Nazi's treated there people better.

quote: Ever seen the bread line in Theresienstadt or Auschwitz?

Irrelevant... Before the war, the majority German people lived like human beings. The same cannot be said for the Russians.

quote: . Apart from that, how do you want to know that one in 20 East Europeans was sent to Siberia? That's a slight exaggeration of the facts

No it isnt. Have you any idea how many were sent to the Gulags? If you thinking a few hundred thousand.....think higher. Try 10 million. Most died of course.

quote: Killing 50 million people in a war that would probably be lost in the end is logical to you?

Stalin killed half that many in the 30's. His own people, not war mind you.

quote: Killing 50 million people in a war that would probably be lost in the end is logical to you?

Very true. But remember what Stalin did to the Ukranians and Eastern Europeans...Rake up another 15 million dead civilians. Cause he used the state authority to create a famine in the Ukraine. Not once, TWICE!

	28-02-2002 23:25									#23
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So you're changing the definition of National Socialist in order to suit your argument, Andz83?

	28-02-2002 23:34									#24
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Yeah...you're right. I'd feel sooooo much better knowing I was being killed cos I wasn't part of the master race than to know I was being killed cos I was in the way of Stalin's grand plan.

I'd shoot myself to avoid the vote.

-=Vel=-

	28-02-2002 23:35									#25
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Better still, I'd save the bullet for the guy makin' me decide between two essentially untentable choices...

-=Vel=-

	28-02-2002 23:49									#26
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Boddington's, that had no connection to my point at all.

Velociryx, we're talking about communism in general here, not Stalinism as such. Of course that need s to be debated as well, buthave you ever thought about socialist theories without thinking of de-facto-fascists like Stalin in the same moment?

Faded Glory, I won't discuss the Stalin issue any further, it doesn't lead anywhere. But please explain me how sending people into gulags is linked to socialism or communism respectively? Stalin was not really a communist, and you'll find that the later governments of the USSR and East Europe took a big distance to Stalinist ideals and the cult about hsi person or any ruling person at all.

	28-02-2002 23:49									#27
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Ecthelion,
Don’t waste your time on these guys. They know nothing about nazism. They do not understand the difference between being hanged after the farce court, and being burned alive because you are Jews or Slav.
I think if their countries lost 27 millions of people in war against nazism their attitude will be different.
I respect you, and all modern Germans who think that way about nazism. And I wish to thank you for this. But it is not your fault. Remember about these terrible times in your history, but please don’t blame yourself for it, modern Germans not guilty.

	28-02-2002 23:55									#28
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Thanks a lot I don't really feel guilty for what happened. It's a controversal topic in Germany, but I won't go into this now. Most importantly, I think there's more guilt on guys like these, who just don't want to accept that a system that is based on bigoted pseudo-ideals and pure jingoism is worse per definition than a system that wants equal living standard for every member of a society, and of the human race in the end.

It is simple like that, you guys just keep using Stalinism as the one and only example for communism in practice.

Why did communism fail? Because you guys fought it, and fought it very hard. You might call it righ, but guess what: I could call the World Trade Center a very weak, inefficient and evil building (or 2 of them), because it crumbled and killed many people. But I don't, because I know how t olook at the whole picture. Get the parallel?

	01-03-2002 00:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Thanks a lot I don't really feel guilty for what happened. It is simple like that, you guys just keep using Stalinism as the one and only example for communism in practice.

I’m glad about this. I just saw Germans who still feel guilty for deeds of their ancestors, and I don’t think that it right.

quote: I think there's more guilt on guys like these, who just don't want to accept that a system that is based on bigoted pseudo-ideals and pure jingoism is worse per definition than a system that wants equal living standard for every member of a society, and of the human race in the end.

Agreed. But what are you expected from guys brainwashed by propaganda in times of Cold war. They always will be associate Communism with Stalinism.

quote: Why did communism fail? Because you guys fought it, and fought it very hard. You might call it righ, but guess what: I could call the World Trade Center a very weak, inefficient and evil building (or 2 of them), because it crumbled and killed many people. But I don't, because I know how t olook at the whole picture. Get the parallel?

Very precision example.

	01-03-2002 00:19									#30
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Andz, you're making the false assumption that National Socialism = Hitler.