01-03-2002 18:35									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then you can't hold Hitler has the example of Fascism! It is hypocritical to say you are comparing Communism in general versus Hitler. How about Communism in general v. Fascism in general.

Can you read thread titles? I'm talking about National Socialism in the Hitler sense, not Fascism in the Mussolini sense

	01-03-2002 18:45									#152
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quote: Competition in what?

When two government-run factories compete.
I believe that a competition can benefit even a communist system , due to the fact that if there are two ideas of the same product , for example, the one with the better overall quality will eventually succeed. The success will benefit much more the entire society because it wouldn't have to pay so much for the encreased quality for the person with the idea.

some posts, by Imran and Spink , have no logic at all , IMO.

	01-03-2002 19:22									#153
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After axi stated that hitler killed more Soviets than Stalin did and that he would have erased the wholke Soviet population had he won the war, someone (I think it was FG) said that he just didn't win the war and therefor it wouldn't matter.

But it isn't simple as that. Stalin did not eradicate all of East and Central Europe's population, BTW, and not the Germans either. As it seems, even Stalin was closer to humanitarian ideals than Hitler.

A word about fascism / national socialism. It's most sensible to use the former term for the Mussolini regime, since "his system" was not only closer to the original spirit of 'fascism', his system actually coined the term. Related to the Roman tradition of using fagots as a symbol of power, so did they, and said packs of brush-wood are called 'fascia' in Italy. Fascism covers a class-based society, a burgeois reactionary grand-capital government backing / backed by a monarchy, a state religion etc etc. Hitler had sort of a classless system, no monarchy in the traditional sense, no emphasis on religious traditions, and was therefore just not reactionary and copnservative enough to be calles a fascist. So National Socialism is the term we've always used for that, as Fascism is the word for Mussolini. That logic might have flaws to it, but it's a lot easier to link those terms with certain definitions (or historical examples like in this case) than to argue about word meanings. This thread had a different idea, it's not about defining communism or clarifying whether it works or not.

And even if communism doesn't work properly - people are fed, get 50 years old, and each family has a living standard that is enough for not being totally depressed all the time.

National socialism means eternal suffering for all the population, and if it's not in time of war when the enemies' armies attack the civil population, then it's in times of peace when officials decide to get you locked up in a camp for being different. Stalinism is pretty close to national socialism, just without the reactionary component. Real communism ir socialism, and also those forms of it we've seen in Latin America before the CIA destroyed democratically elected governments, were not close to that at all, and the people there didn't suffer.

	01-03-2002 20:44									#154
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Serb: Many Americans, including myself, would be just as horrified (or more horrified) with the government killing its citizens because of ideology rather than ethnicity. That's probably what you're seeing here. And yes, it's a little radical.

Your grandfather's "traiterous" actions only show one of many different circumstances that lead to a life such as working on the Siberian railways. Some were based on ideology. Some were based on ethnicity. Some based on "loyalty" broadly construed. Some were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

On the other hand, many of the Nazi's victims were killed due to their ideology rather than ethnicity. Over a million Roman Catholics were killed in the camps for being insufficiently loyal to the state, for instance.

The one big difference between the two is that the Germans were organized, while the Soviets weren't. But both were planned.

Last edited by DanS on 01-03-2002 at 20:54

	01-03-2002 21:00									#155
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How would you decide, DanS?

	01-03-2002 21:51									#156
	My Stefu-sense is inevitably drawn to mentions of Finland Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Spain, lithuania, Roumania, and Bulgaria (maybe even Finnland but perhaps not)

No "perhaps" about that, Albert. :q

quote: Furthermore, the Red Terror was targetted, whereas the White Terror was indiscriminate. Stefu can tell you about the White Terror's effects in Finland, even if he's glad the Red's lost there. One quarter of the Finnish working class was slaughtered that awful summer of 1918 by the Whites and their German allies.

Well, the terror of Civil War, by both sides, is indeed the dark spot of Finnish history.

First of all, in case of Finland, both Red and White terror were pretty much indiscriminate. In both cases, the authorities (People's Committee in case of Reds, Mannerheim in case of Whites) tries to control the terror - but nevertheless it happened. Motives were traditional - revenge was one of the big ones (Red tenant farmers wanting to straighten out accounts with their former landlords, Whites who had heard (true and faked) accounts of Red terror.)

There were about 9000 victims of White terror, and 12500 losing their lives in prison camps thanks to hunger and sickness. There were also Russian victims. I don't know about where Chegitz is getting his number of quarter of Finnish working class dying. One reason for there being more victims of White Terror is, naturally, that the Whites won. Considering that Red Terror was as indiscriminate as White Terror, I have no doubt that should Reds have won, there would have been equal number of hastily-strung together fake trials and executions of "known oppressors of people".

Another thing about White Terror. White Terror was pretty much just that one, bloody outburst - and then President Ståhlberg pardoned the prisoners in camps. Sure, they lost many of their civil rights (like vote), but no killing after that, and while there's no doubt many wounds were left festering, Finnish people were sufficiently unified to put up a common front against the invader during the Winter War. OTOH, if we look at Soviet Russia and other examples of Red victory, we can see continual terror, occasionally simmering, low-grade terror, occasionally more acute terror. There were many enough people in Red rebellion favoring military dictatorship, and with the Bear exerting pressure next door, I believe it would have been inevitable they would have got what they wanted. And that's why I'm glad the Whites, not the Reds, won. The White victory, as bloody as the results were, made it possible for Finland to become a benevolent social democracy that it is today.

	01-03-2002 23:07									#157
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I grew up with such stories too. My grandfather being a German soldier. And when I was older, he said he had no idea of them.

I guess he was lucky enough to never cross paths with my great uncle. He burried quite a few of these scum before being caught and tortured to death.
And if your father doesn't remember anything he is as good as dead.

Where did he serve? Shoving sh!t in Indiana?
Else he's lucky he wasn't burried somewhere in Europe and Russia.

And you have inherited his dead memory

quote: Firstly, that wasnt "Insensitive". You dont suffer at all from the occupation. You werent around. And you also fail to menton how traumitized you are, from greece's little civil war.... which killed many civilians. Seems your only "Traumitized" when it suits your political agenda.

You can just **** off for all I care.

quote: Irrelevant to the topic at hand. The question is wether who was worse. Communist or National Socialists. And its very..very, historically clear, the Communists were worse. just because American soldiers didnt liberate the Gulags, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. We also have a number. The number of Communist citizens killed by there own Government. That number stands at 100 million, and were still counting.

We have lived under the Nazis and we know their monstrosity,
people have lived in Yugoslavia and know the communists and they know how it is.

You know sh!t but your propaganda so you can shut up.
You're just a Nazi's offspring. I pity you if your contrymen "know" as much as you do.

	02-03-2002 00:06									#158
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You cannot compare communism and nacizm simply because the ideas behind the systems are totally different. Nacizm as such has genocide incorporated in it, you cannot have one withouth the other, and that by default makes it probably the worst form of goverment ever. Communism on the other hand has an idealist idea behind it and if it worked this earth would come close to heaven - almost like nirvana. However the working model of the idea does not take into consideration that an average human is not a buddhist monk with no desire for power over others and selfishness etc...

So it cannot work on this earth and you can only get a perversion of the communist idea working with us humans. For humans free markert capitalism is the best so far because there are mechanisms in there built in to contain inherent evil in us all. In communism there was no such mechanism, and that is the reason that it gave all the power to Stalin and that was the end. If there was a Ghandi type personality instead of Stalin perhaps the would would have seen the next social revolution, this way around Stalin turned out the ideal into torture, pain, and a totalitarian system. However evil (killing and torture) is built in Nacizm from the beginning for " the unworthy".

	02-03-2002 01:35									#159
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I wonder what the Israeli posters have to say about this issue. I expected that they would be all over this thread.

quote: My Stefu-sense is inevitably drawn to mentions of Finland

Does your Stefu sense have anything to do with the Apolyton search feature?

quote: fagots

Was that why they persecuted homosexuals? Because their ideology was all about tying up fagots?

(sorry couldn't resist)

quote: I wouldn´t label myself trotskyist, but my party has trotskyist roots. Socialist Party, Sweden section of the Fourth International (USFI)

If the 4th international isn't Trotskyists, then who is?

quote: I guess he was lucky enough to never cross paths with my great uncle. He burried quite a few of these scum before being caught and tortured to death.

Where did he live, paiktis?

My father was born and raised in Lamia. Their house was just by the RR station and the Germans had a light AA gun installed on the terrace, under the klimataria. This is why that house was bombed by the British, by the end of the war. My father remembered alot from this era. In 1944 they had an ELAS fighter billeted in their house, who had the strange name Pendethekas (like in 5-10). My father was present when Aris Velouchiotis came from the mountain to Lamia and gave his historical speech in plateia Laou (where his statue currently is).

	02-03-2002 01:41									#160
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quote: Does your Stefu sense have anything to do with the Apolyton search feature?

Actually, in most cases, it doesn't.

	02-03-2002 01:49									#161
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quote: Where did he live, paiktis?

He lived in Athens. He was part of a local resistance movement squad (not the left-wing AFAIK - He was the brother of my maternal grandmother). Has bombed more german storage buildings and armament trains than I can count

He was caught while planting yet another bomb in a railway and tortured to death to reviele his comrades which he never did. (because non of them got caught afterwards).

My family is half left and half right wing (non of them to the far edges though).

	02-03-2002 02:16									#162
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BTW that generation, the generation of our grandfathers was really the greatest.

We ***** and moan about all kinds of little sh!t while they went through 2 World Wars and a Civil War (not to mention the dictatorship - my grandfather was taken to the police station for "interogation" every now and then simply because he openly advocated more workers' rights to the people who were sucked dry from the fascists and their company scums with full support of you know who).

Before that we was taken to excile in Egypt () right after the WW2 by the fascists and our "allies" the british with the accusation that "he had sold cigarrettes to members of worker's syndicates"...

They just picked up whoever they found "suspicious" or whoever the fascists had even a personal grudge with, robbed them, loaded them in ships and sent them to a british concentration camp in Egypt courtesy of the british "travel agency".

His family thought he was killed since of course noone notified them. My grandmother was pregnant with his child (my aunt) at that time.

And still he talked of it lighthearded even making jokes about it.

Before that it was famine, executions etc

And still he managed not only to survive but to raise a great family who will remember him untill the end of time for the great loving caring person he was.


That was the best generation IMO. The very best.

We have it 1000% better. (that doesn't mean we have to stop fighting).

	02-03-2002 02:46									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Can you read thread titles? I'm talking about National Socialism in the Hitler sense, not Fascism in the Mussolini sense

Like I said, National Socialism doesn't mean Nazi. Many Fascist writers refered to Fascism as National Socialism (in fact it was called that before Mussolini gave it the name Fascism).

And if that is true, then that is a PISS POOR comparison. You know that people were perfering Naziism over Stalist Communism, not Naziism over Utopian Communism. You put words in people's mouths.

It'd be like me saying 'How can people prefer Stalin to American democracy?' and using people like che as examples.

Totally dishonest.

	02-03-2002 02:50									#164
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quote: Imram, Nazism and National Socialism are the same. Fascism is different from both. That may be what you were thinking.

Actually you are incorrect, and actually most people are incorrect.

Fascism is a term given to the movement by Mussolini, for the Italian word Fasci (his party).

Before then, people like Barres (who came up with Fascism in the early 20s in France) named the movement National Socialism. Mussolini's name for it stuck, since he was the first to impliment it.

	02-03-2002 03:26									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Fascism is a term given to the movement by Mussolini, for the Italian word Fasci (his party).

Actually it's a lot older. The term comes from the Roman empire. The Roman consuls had a sign of their absolute power, it was an ax embedded in a bundle of rods, and called fascina (sp?).

	02-03-2002 03:42									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imram, Nazism and National Socialism are the same. Fascism is different from both. That may be what you were thinking. Actually you are incorrect, and actually most people are incorrect. Fascism is a term given to the movement by Mussolini, for the Italian word Fasci (his party). Before then, people like Barres (who came up with Fascism in the early 20s in France) named the movement National Socialism. Mussolini's name for it stuck, since he was the first to impliment it.

That may be, and if so, we are both equally and partially wrong. National Socialism is an accepted term for Nazism. The actual name of the Nazi party is the Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP.

That is the context in which I was using national Socialism, and in that case, I was correct, you were wrong. In the context you mentioned, using Barres party, you are correct, and I am not.

However, National Socialism is used primarily to refer to Nazism, and using it to refer to Barres will lead to much confusion.

Steele

	02-03-2002 03:43									#167
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Ah, no wonder Mussolini called his party that. After all, he wanted a 'New Rome'.

	02-03-2002 03:44									#168
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc That may be, and if so, we are both equally and partially wrong. National Socialism is an accepted term for Nazism. The actual name of the Nazi party is the Nationalsozialistiche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP. That is the context in which I was using national Socialism, and in that case, I was correct, you were wrong. In the context you mentioned, using Barres party, you are correct, and I am not. However, National Socialism is used primarily to refer to Nazism, and using it to refer to Barres will lead to much confusion. Steele

Yes, perhaps... however, for this discussion, I was using it to mean to Fascism. Because that is the only fair way to compare it to Communism (in the ideal sense). If you wanted to you the Nazis, then compare it to Stalinism.

You know what I mean?

	02-03-2002 03:54									#169
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Ecthelion: I don't know which I would decide. It's so close. Both have proven inherently evil and unstable forms of government. But I voted for National Socialism.

The thing is, it's unrealistic to distinguish between the ideals of these ideologies and their ultimate consequences. So, for instance, communism isn't absolved from its association with Stalin and Mao, just as National Socialism isn't absolved from its association with Hitler.

In order to compare communism and National Socialism fairly, you would have to play bizarre what-if games, where Nazi Germany survives the war and Hitler eventually dies. Would there have been a backlash against Hitler's policies, such as there was with Stalin? Tough to say.

	02-03-2002 05:47									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Like I said, National Socialism doesn't mean Nazi. Many Fascist writers refered to Fascism as National Socialism (in fact it was called that before Mussolini gave it the name Fascism).

bleh... the origibal question was "if you had to decide between Nazis and Communists, how would you vote?"... and common sense tells us he was referring to the German Natinal Socialists, and they happened to be lead by Hitler.

Noone, truly noone but PH has considered the 20s situation in Germany and used the German communist party of that time as example for Communism. Instead, peopel keep on bashing Stalin when it just doesn't fit into the topic

	02-03-2002 05:54									#171
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Imran: Yes, I believe I understand.

I think a way to simplify this discussion is as follows:

Nazism:Stalinism::Fascism:Communism

Both Fascism and Communism are not evil ideas, they are both very admirable, if they can be made to work. However, they cannot be, and the efforts of trying have resulted in things like Nazism and Stalinism. Nazism and Stalinism are very extreme, screwed up, and inherently evil versions of their brethern, Fascism and Communism, respectively.

The original question was asked about Nazism and Communism, however I think he meant to compare Nazism ans Stalinism. That is much harder, and could take literally months or years to discuss in depth.

Steele

	02-03-2002 06:05									#172
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I don't think there would be a realalistic chance of Germany going communist in the 1920's, the communists would have been put down by the French army.

	02-03-2002 06:13									#173
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quote: bleh... the origibal question was "if you had to decide between Nazis and Communists, how would you vote?"... and common sense tells us he was referring to the German Natinal Socialists, and they happened to be lead by Hitler.

Common sense also tells us if you are using the Nazis then by refering to Communists, you are refering to Stalinism.

	02-03-2002 06:21									#174
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No, because if Nazism = national socialism = hitler ideoglogy then communism = Luxemburg and Liebkncecht ideology, and those people were not evil, power-obessed murderers...

	02-03-2002 06:35									#175
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No, because it doesn't make sense to compare Nazis to bread and butter Communists.

And Communism where ever it has been implimented is closer to the Stalin type.

	02-03-2002 07:22									#176
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IMO, Communism is all about excuses.

What I mean by that is simply this:

There are, even today, those who hold up Communistic ideals, but when asked to point to even one single instance where those ideals have been:

1) Adhered to in even a liberal sense of the word,
and
2) Not corrupted by some powermongering dictator
and
3) Capable of competing head to head with a more capitalist-oriented country

....then, out come the excuses....

Everything from....
"Well, you can't judge communism by Stalin or Mao"
to
"Oh...but Communism was meant to be applied on a global scale."

Ah ha.

So...we're supposed to take a system of government that's proven time and time again that it's susceptable to being commandeered by powermongering dictators, and can't compete evenly with capitalistic societies in any case, and apply it globally?

This....makes no sense to my brain.

Of COURSE communism can be equated to the Mao's and Stalin's of the world, just as Facism can be equated to the Hitler's of the world, because those systems of government are easy prey for the powermongers of the world.

I ask the question again, how many failed attempts do you NEED in order to finally become convinced that it just doesn't work?!

Capitalism is all about results.

I can point to any number of nations in existence RIGHT NOW who are off the chart where standard of living is concerned. Guess what? NONE of the top economic powers in the world are communist.

Oh...I can hear the China argument right now...and how did China jumpstart their economy? Was it...via a better five year plan, or was it by PRIVATIZING industries???

People are soooo quick to point out the inequities in the system, and YES...they certainly are there.

Question for you though?

How many millionaires are there, per capita in China?

How many in the USA?

How many people made MILLIONS by applying themselves diligently in the US this year alone?

Gaahhh! I just don't get it. Yeah....let's make a global switch to a system of government that's proven itself faulty time and time again....sounds lovely!

-=Vel=-

	02-03-2002 07:40									#177
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I guess he was lucky enough to never cross paths with my great uncle. He burried quite a few of these scum before being caught and tortured to death. And if your father doesn't remember anything he is as good as dead.

He wasnt me father, me grandfather. And he fought a world away, in france. Besides, didnt the italians patrol occupied greece?

quote: Where did he serve? Shoving sh!t in Indiana? Else he's lucky he wasn't burried somewhere in Europe and Russia. And you have inherited his dead memory

Moron... he came over as a POW and the rest is history.

quote: You can just **** off for all I care.

Likewise.....

quote: We have lived under the Nazis and we know their monstrosity, people have lived in Yugoslavia and know the communists and they know how it is.

"we"? "We"???? Wha?? You obvouisy didnt. You didnt suffer from jack ****. thats the point I was trying to make. So stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of a victim. Its pure bullshit and is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

quote: You know sh!t but your propaganda so you can shut up. You're just a Nazi's offspring. I pity you if your contrymen "know" as much as you do.

yada.....yada... there now, are you done foaming at the mouth?

	02-03-2002 07:56									#178
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory He wasnt me father, me grandfather. And he fought a world away, in france. Besides, didnt the italians patrol occupied greece?

One more proof that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

quote: Moron... he came over as a POW and the rest is history.

What difference does it make if he came as a POW or as an honored guest?

quote: Likewise.....

yup and right back at you again

quote: "we"? "We"???? Wha?? You obvouisy didnt. You didnt suffer from jack ****. thats the point I was trying to make. So stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of a victim. Its pure bullshit and is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

you have understood sh!t.

quote: yada.....yada... there now, are you done foaming at the mouth?

Do you have something more to add?

	02-03-2002 08:01									#179
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Welcome paiktas, to the ignore list.

	02-03-2002 08:03									#180
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Convenient.