05-03-2002 06:21									#1
	Operation Anaconda: American Troops DEAD Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...ting/index.html

Two US choppers were shot down, one was forced to crash land directly into enemy teroritory. In the gun battle that followed all the grounded American troops involved were killed. Another copter had an onboard soldier fall to his death after swinging to avoid a close incoming missile. A full and massive battle has taken place.

Once and for all: what sort of COMBAT casualty numbers is the BBC reporting for you guys, especially in Anaconda? It's time I asked for some hard figures to find out if I'm right or not to settle this.

	05-03-2002 06:23									#2
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War is messy I am afraid, if you go into other countries, you have to expect casualties alas. If you can't take the casualties, don't go into war.

	05-03-2002 06:23									#3
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Here in Canada I've heard 9 US soldiers were killed, along with at least 3 Afghani soldiers fighting with them.

There are also Canadians involved in Operation Anaconda, but none of them have been injured so far.

	05-03-2002 06:23									#4
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We don't need them right now, Wiglaf. Stop trying to shove it in thier faces. It is considered rude.

	05-03-2002 06:23									#5
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From the bbc site - http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1854750.stm

quote: The Americans have suffered their highest casualties in combat since the war in Afghanistan began, with as many as nine soldiers killed during operations in the east of the country.

	05-03-2002 06:27									#6
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I can't wait until they release the casualities for the Al Qaeda/Taliban resistance... fourty... fifty? Sixty?

Sure, 9 deaths is tragic.... but the US has had worse. And war is war.

	05-03-2002 06:29									#7
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Using the helicopters is a bad move at that altitude.

I can't think of any alternative though. There's probably all kinds of mines and **** around up there.

	05-03-2002 06:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Using the helicopters is a bad move at that altitude. I can't think of any alternative though. There's probably all kinds of mines and **** around up there.

The Ecuadorian Airforce has 100 Light Attack Helicopters they use at an air-base at 9000 feet... maybe the Americans should ask advice. Some countries have to fly helicopters at high altitudes. I was thinking the US should ask these countries how they do it well.

	05-03-2002 06:36									#9
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Interestingly, the choppers which were lost were MH-47s, the same kind as the one which crashed off the Philipines a week ago.
I wonder if this is a coincidence, or wether there's something wrong with the choppers... (they are very big and would make easy targets).

	05-03-2002 06:41									#10
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Flying light attack helos hasn't got **** to do with air assault tactics.

Elevation of the LZ does not matter - you have to adjust the loading of the helo for lift factors (temp and humidity) anyway, regardless of the elevation.

The simple fact of life is that insertion / extraction in and out of LZ's is 95% of the danger of air assault ops.

And the mother****ers on the ground know the wind direction and how the helos have to go in for the insertion - and how long (once you've seen a few do it) it takes to get translational lift and extract.

The one big question that isn't answered in any of the press reports is how much gunship support is onhand for any of these insert / extract sorties, and how much (if any) prepping of the LZ is done prior to insertion.

Air assault gives you a big edge in mobility and is a huge force multiplier for light forces in difficult terrain, but there is a big vulnerability whenever an LZ is hot.

	05-03-2002 06:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Case Interestingly, the choppers which were lost were MH-47s, the same kind as the one which crashed off the Philipines a week ago. I wonder if this is a coincidence, or wether there's something wrong with the choppers... (they are very big and would make easy targets).

MH-47's are an updated version of old birds. They are big and slow, but they're the long range heavy lift component of army SOFs - they can carry more payload than UH-60s, and have mid-air refuelability, and have some mods specific to SOF operations - they are better suited for fastrope operations, undersling transport of mission cargo, etc.

	05-03-2002 07:06									#12
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It's a war... deal with it.

	05-03-2002 07:11									#13
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Its sad but even sadder is this war is going exactly the way some of us predicted it would from the start i.e. guerilla war, escalating casualties and no end in sight.

	05-03-2002 07:21									#14
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Imran, I realize it's a war for us, but what about for the coalition? Someone please provide me with the non-US casualty figures for Enduring Freedom.

	05-03-2002 07:24									#15
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Wiglaf, buddy, the US has more casualties because they commit far more troops. They commit far more troops because it IS largely your war, and you have a budget about 100x that Canada has, for example.

You're winning, deal with it and stop whining.

And go join the military for yourself, you little chickenshit.

	05-03-2002 07:25									#16
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I can't believe this. Nine friggen dead people and everyones calling it a complete loss
How many people died from crime today? Car accidents? Etc.
And you people get worked up over the deaths of people who knew and accepted the risks as part of their job.

	05-03-2002 07:28									#17
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I would have thought in a coalition war all allied casualties hurt the same Wiglaf

	05-03-2002 07:32									#18
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Horsie, there will be no repeat of Vietnam. Stop beating your dirty hippie drums.


There are significant resistance in the pocket yes. But there are no places to hide for the taliban. Not with Thermobaric bombs, Infered, and AC-130's. Its absolutely upsurd to think we might lose. This is a regrouped taliban. But weaker. We have proved already, that there tactic's dont work. That is why they are where they are now. In a small 50 square mile mountainous region on the border.

	05-03-2002 07:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I can't wait until they release the casualities for the Al Qaeda/Taliban resistance... fourty... fifty? Sixty?

We should never be gleeful at death, or hope for high body counts, Gian. Those guys are someones' sons, too.

And Wiggy--will you PLEASE knock this obnoxious bullshit off? Yes, we have more casualties than other countries. We also spend more on our military than the next ten nations COMBINED. Try to use some goddam REASON and SENSE the next time you feel the urge to make a fool of yourself.

	05-03-2002 07:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Horsie, there will be no repeat of Vietnam. Stop beating your dirty hippie drums. There are significant resistance in the pocket yes. But there are no places to hide for the taliban. Not with Thermobaric bombs, Infered, and AC-130's. Its absolutely upsurd to think we might lose. This is a regrouped taliban. But weaker. We have proved already, that there tactic's dont work. That is why they are where they are now. In a small 50 square mile mountainous region on the border.

Really - seems almost spooky in the parallels to me - US reliance on technology against insurgents, an inability to finish them off, use of border sanctuaries, escalating casualties, enemy quickly regrouping from defeats. initial very high domestic popularity.

My prediction is it won't be long before there is a hit and run attack on allied forces in a major city - you heard it here first folks!

	05-03-2002 08:04									#21
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quote: Wiglaf, buddy, the US has more casualties because they commit far more troops. They commit far more troops because it IS largely your war, and you have a budget about 100x that Canada has, for example.

OK, let's look at Britain. They've got the resources to send planes and troops over, don't tell me they don't. The money, everything - it's all there and in place. It's the bad politics of a British soldier dying that keep them from sending someone in one of these choppers on the front lines..and that's too bad.

	05-03-2002 08:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf OK, let's look at Britain. They've got the resources to send planes and troops over, don't tell me they don't. The money, everything - it's all there and in place. It's the bad politics of a British soldier dying that keep them from sending someone in one of these choppers on the front lines..and that's too bad.

You seem to be under the impression that every country should send every single military resource out to Afghanistan at once, so we can take out the 5000 or so remaining Taliban.

Do you have any concept of logistics and military coordination?

	05-03-2002 08:08									#23
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How old are you?

I think you'll find that the British public will absorb casualties just as well if not better than the U.S. public does.

And need I remind you of the many recent occasions where the British sent in troops and the United States squibbed it (Sarajevo for one)?

	05-03-2002 08:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Really - seems almost spooky in the parallels to me - US reliance on technology against insurgents, an inability to finish them off, use of border sanctuaries, escalating casualties, enemy quickly regrouping from defeats. initial very high domestic popularity.

no...its not hit and run. Its duck,cover, and hide. If that is a good tactic.....phf...well. Thats not a good tactic. Its possible they were planing somthing in the regrouping...but whatever it was, all bets are off. There now officially, surrounded, unlike tora bora where they slipped along the pakistan side.

Btw......5 months is not a quick regroup. The Viet's are laughing at the talibs. They could form thousands in the middle of a jungle over a week.

The Gardez regrouping is more of a "come in, well look out the window and wait till they let there gaurd down"

Vietnam was wwwwwwaaaaaaaaay different. We fought a restricted war. We are not doing that here.....there is no barricades. No fatcat buearcrat giving political orders.

quote: My prediction is it won't be long before there is a hit and run attack on allied forces in a major city - you heard it here first folks!

I doubt it. Kabul is very secure. over armed 5,000 peacekeepers and NA troops. If they did try hit and runs, fat chance they will actualy kill anybody......

	05-03-2002 08:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I doubt it. Kabul is very secure. over armed 5,000 peacekeepers and NA troops. If they did try hit and runs, fat chance they will actualy kill anybody......

Since I'm about to win my bet with MTG on OBL, care to make a bet about that?

	05-03-2002 08:27									#26
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Oh well, a few Americans died. But there will be hell to pay if any Afghani's die.

	05-03-2002 08:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its sad but even sadder is this war is going exactly the way some of us predicted it would from the start i.e. guerilla war, escalating casualties and no end in sight.

No offense, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

These people have no place else to go, no ongoing logisitical or materiel support, and they're essentially trapped, with limited mobility.

It's like referring to the Falaise pocket as the beginning of an insurgency - the Gardeyz-Khowst-Ghazni region is one of two or three isolated areas in the country these guys retreated to, and now there's an increase in density because the remnants keep coming in and they can't exfiltrate back into the rest of the country in significant enough numbers.

They can't stay in place either, because before spring comes, they'll deplete their food supplies. The road to Parachinar (Pakistan) is very limited, and the countryside in that area doesn't favor rapid cross-country movement or movement with heavy supplies under cover.

In short, they're in a death-trap, and they've chosen, thus far, to fight it out.

	05-03-2002 08:30									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Since I'm about to win my bet with MTG on OBL, care to make a bet about that?

Really? Have you seen any confirmation he's alive? I haven't.

	05-03-2002 08:31									#29
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"Really? Have you seen any confirmation he's alive? I haven't."

Is this going to turn into another God thread?

	05-03-2002 08:32									#30
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Check the original thread - I didn't have to prove he was alive, you had to prove he was dead.