31-10-2002 00:15									#361
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kuratko 1. What about raising the fortress defense bonus to 100%. In the current state I find them hardly useful....

I don't think that that change alone would make people build fortress more often.

And if I'm not sure that some change would be good, then I try to keep old values.

Although there are some good uses. Like for extra defense in colony (having them both at same tile) or to guard a chokepoint.

quote: [SIZE=1]2. Setting Privateer as a Barbarian sea unit. To me this seems a logical choice. It would make overseas expansion more difficult but still tractable using galleys (they will have 2hp, galleys with 2 hp are rather weak).

Having Pribateer with Cannons in ancient age would just kill the flavor.

Still it would be nice if barbarians could upgrade their fleet to Privateers in renesance.

But, unfortunately it's not possibile.

quote: [SIZE=1]3. More controversial: What about improving the jungle to F/S/C=1/1/0? I know they can be cut but still it seems to me that civilizations starting in jungles are severely handicapped. Though bad luck is part of the game, jungle might be a too big penalty. On the other hand, jungles can help to separate two civs for some time which might be a good thing, I don't know, what do you think?

Would not help.
You always get disease in jungles.

quote: [SIZE=1]4. I still have a problem with Explorer. As it is, I rarely use it as an Explorer as it comes too late. I would either move it to earlier tech (Map Making?) or rename it as I use it rather as a rapparee destroying foreign improvements and 'spying'. Moving it earlier, however, would make it too strong with movement of 2 and 'all terrain as roads' which in turn would further weaken expansionistic trait. What do you think?

There are uses, like using them for pillaging impovments behind enemy lines. And I gave them defense of 1 to help them in that task.

Alowing them earliers would make their graphic a little bit silly.

Anyway, Exapnsionistic civ already get Scout for early exploration.

	31-10-2002 00:17									#362
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

By the way, you forgot to add "no jungle" description to Radar Artillery in that PDF.

	31-10-2002 14:31									#363
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by player1 By the way, you forgot to add "no jungle" description to Radar Artillery in that PDF.

Sorry for the omission, corrected now.

	31-10-2002 14:55									#364
	Increase Your PM Length

By the way, PtW is out now.

Since I would probably not see it for couple of days (or even weeks), I have question for you who have bought it.

What version of Player1 MOD is shipped with it?
(1.33 or 1.34)

And is anything changed with it?
Like added supoport for new civs or anything else.

	31-10-2002 20:49									#365
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kuratko What about improving the jungle to F/S/C=1/1/0? I know they can be cut but still it seems to me that civilizations starting in jungles are severely handicapped. Though bad luck is part of the game, jungle might be a too big penalty.

quote: Originally posted by player1 Would not help. You always get disease in jungles.

IMO, 1/1/0 jungles would make it worthwile to work jungle tiles while my workers are clearing these very tiles. The risk of disease is still there, but at least I'm gaining something for it - basically, it's like working floodplains in vanilla Civ3. I'd really like this tweak to be included in the PS mod.

(Actually, I already suggested this idea for the AU mod some time ago, but alexman seems to like the challenge of overcoming a jungle starting position. To me, jungles are 'too big a penalty', as Kuratko put it.)

	03-11-2002 16:48									#366
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here are the plans for PtW version of the MOD.

Since I don't have PtW yet, some thing would be maybe done differently.


First,
In order to make Guerrila in line with other units from this MOD, it will get attack of 7, and lower price of 80. Old units still upgrade to Riflemen, but benefit of Guerrila is to get attack of 7, when you don't have Rubber.

Second,
I realy have problem with Berserk attack of 6. These guys with big axes have as high attack as Gun-Armed Cavalry. So I'll reduce their attack to 5, but give then price of 50 shields. It's still a powerfull unit that can take out Pikemen or Musketmen.

Third,
Since in PtW, Stl. Fighter gets op. range of 8 (was 6), and Stl. Bomber gets op. range of 12 (was 8), that will be implemented in this MOD too. But also, I'll increase Bombers op. range to 8 (was 6), othervise Bombers would have TWICE lower range then Stl. Bombers, and that's way too much.

Non-PtW version will keep old op. range values, since Stl. Bomber still needs higher range then Bomber (8vs6).


Any other suggestions?


P.S.
By the way, 1.29f patch Bowmen had defense AI flag selected (offense too), while PtW Bowmen has not (according to one thread about BIC chnages).
Does defense AI flag for Bowmen work well for you (is Babylon competetive), or we should remove it too (in both versions of MOD).

	03-11-2002 18:14									#367
	Increase Your PM Length

Some other non-PtW related changes I am planning.


Privateer movment increase to 4 (was 3). I doubt that it would be unbalanced since although Frigate is more expesive it has both higher defense and BOMBARDMENT ability.

Submarine will upgrade to Nuc. Submarine, and Nuc. Submarine will have price reduced to 120 (in fact it was original price in Civ3 v1.07f).

AEGIS Cruiser changes: It is Cruiser not Destoyer so it has higher attack of 14 (already done in v1.0 of MOD). Also it is AEGIS, so it must have good air defense. To reflect that, I decided to give them defense of 12 (same as Batteship, but it's cheaper, so better for pure defense missions).

Probably removing defense AI flag from Bowmen (as it is done in PtW). Since they get upgraded to Longbowmen (which has only defense of 1).

	03-11-2002 18:15									#368
	Got spare money?

dp

	04-11-2002 14:14									#369
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by player1 Some other non-PtW related changes I am planning. Privateer movment increase to 4 (was 3). I doubt that it would be unbalanced since although Frigate is more expesive it has both higher defense and BOMBARDMENT ability. Submarine will upgrade to Nuc. Submarine, and Nuc. Submarine will have price reduced to 120 (in fact it was original price in Civ3 v1.07f). AEGIS Cruiser changes: It is Cruiser not Destoyer so it has higher attack of 14 (already done in v1.0 of MOD). Also it is AEGIS, so it must have good air defense. To reflect that, I decided to give them defense of 12 (same as Batteship, but it's cheaper, so better for pure defense missions). Probably removing defense AI flag from Bowmen (as it is done in PtW). Since they get upgraded to Longbowmen (which has only defense of 1).

While I doubt that anybody would disagree with Submarine & Privateer changes, but I realy need some opinions about possibile AEGIS Cruiser change of defense.


P.S.
Some PtW feedback would be nice too.
Especily concerning op. range of Bomber.

	04-11-2002 19:05									#370
	AEGIS Combat Systems Suffering from ads?

Player1,

The US Navy has several classes of ships equipped with AEGIS Combat Systems, many of which are destroyers and frigates, since they are somewhat less expensive that larger ships to own and operate.

I agree with you thinking about changing the defensive value since their primary role is to protect ships like aircraft carriers from aircraft and anti-ship missles. They are not concerned about submarines, since that role is usually handled by non-AEGIS destroyers and firgates that have the very sensitive passive sonar equipment.

If you need more details, check out sites like Jane's, and you can get a feel for the specs they have on the system. Even the upgrades made to the New Jersey included elements of the AEGIS system, like the Phalanx guns on the bow and stern. The Phalanx system uses liquid cooled 20mm gatling guns firing depleted uranium rounds to knock down surface skimming missles.


D.

	04-11-2002 19:19									#371
	Got spare money?

So 14/12/6 unit would be OK.

Right?

	04-11-2002 19:23									#372
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

dp

	04-11-2002 19:24									#373
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Batteship would still be expensive and powerfull, Destroyer would be cheap and expendable, and AEGIS Cruiser would be somewere at the middle.

I could see in late game, that players would use Destroyers less often, but considering that you get Destroyers with industrial tech and AEGIS Cruiser with late modern tech, it should not be probelm.

Still, Batteships will be used very often in any age.
(for bombard and offense purposes)
But AEGIS Cruiser would be better (cheaper) for pure escort missions.

	04-11-2002 19:31									#374
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Or what about making them 12/12/6
(with offense same as in core Civ3)

That way you could still have usefull Destroyers (and Cruisers).

	04-11-2002 23:34									#375
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What about giving the AEGIS Cruisers the ability to carry tactical missiles? That would really make them useful...

	05-11-2002 04:10									#376
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Caliban What about giving the AEGIS Cruisers the ability to carry tactical missiles? That would really make them useful...

Interesting, although I don't know how would AI handle that, and it would need some cheating with units flag (adding foot type flag to Cr. Misssiles). And maybe it's a little bit out of vanilla Civ3 flavor.

Still nice idea. But I would probably not add it.
(also it raises question why other ships do not carry Missiles)

	05-11-2002 04:13									#377
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I was just thinking about Cannons once agian.

And I think that maybe increasing ROF to 2 and giving them cost of 60 would be an OK idea.

Frigate to Cannon comparation should not realy be problematic, since with Cannon's cost of 60, it's assumed that it's much greater number of cannons then at Frigate. On the other hand Destoyer has also much lower bombard value then Artillery, and AEGIS Cruiser value is also probably lower them from RA too (while Battleship is much more expesive and is suppsed to be special case).

Should I do it?
(ROF=2 and cost of 60)



P.S.
By the way,
I would probably go with 12/12/6 AEGIS Cruiser.
Any one thinks it's OK?

	05-11-2002 04:14									#378
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by player1 And I think that maybe increasing ROF to 2 and giving them cost of 60 would be an OK idea.

It should also reduce unit micromanaging.

	05-11-2002 04:34									#379
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

for cost 60 / RoF 2 cannons, because it's a smoother transition from catapults to artillery IMO.

	05-11-2002 05:01									#380
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by lockstep for cost 60 / RoF 2 cannons, because it's a smoother transition from catapults to artillery IMO.

And it would also give Bom. 12, ROF 2, cost 60 for Korean Cannons in PtW.
But that would be not unbalaning, since they would STILL have range of 1.

	05-11-2002 15:24									#381
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

By the way, I was also thinking about reducing Communism wokers bonus to +50% (from +100%) as in Democracy.

Since I looked on that as more flavor thing, and so maybe +100% is too much.

+50% is enough to reflect higher "public work" efficiency of Communism (in early post war periods).


P.S.
By the way, while I was looking that AU thread I got one idea about Communism (maybe too much radical for this MOD).

What would happed if you change pop-rush number from 20 to 30?

	06-11-2002 02:07									#382
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I haven't played in Communism a lot - not at all since the 100% worker rate - so I don't have an opinion.

If you could increase pop-rush shields for Communism only, I'd say go for it. But it might have drastic affects on Despotism; pop-rushing is still pretty good early game, and it was even better when the first one netted you 40 shields. If every single one gives 30, it would be a huge boost for despots, making food and luxuries even more important early-game factors than they are now.

Has this increase been play-tested much?

	06-11-2002 03:50									#383
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Has this increase been play-tested much?

Actually it hasn't.
So that would be main reason I won't put it into MOD.

Although it would be good idea if it could have been Communism only (and then maybe even 40 shields pre pop would be ok).

	06-11-2002 03:58									#384
	Inflate your Upload Space

VERSION 1.37 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.37

Privateers get increased movement of 4 in order to become more competitive. Although they have price of 40 (compared to price of 60 for Frigates), it's not overpowering considering that Frigate has both higher defense rating and very useful bombard ability.

Submarines get upgraded to Nuc. Submarines. Also, Nuc. Submarines get reduced cost of 120 shields (was 140). Considering that Nuc. Submarines are better in every way, there are obvious reasons for new upgrade chain. Still not so better to keep old price of 140 shields.

In order to make AEGIS Cruiser better at defense against bombers (that's the point of AEGIS), I increased their defense rating to 12. It's same defense as of Battleship, but since they are cheaper they become best in escort missions. Still in order to not make them too much dominating, I reduced their attack to original value of 12 (was 14 before).

Cannons get ROF of 2, but their price increases to 60 shields (was 30). This will reduce some micromanagement and make use of Cannons an interesting choice.

Workers "working speed bonus" in Communism is lowered to +50% (was +100%).
Since "worker bonus" was added more because of flavor (Communism is "worker ideology") and to make Communism more distinctive from Monarchy, I though that +100% bonus is maybe just too much. Still it's higher then original settings, in which Communism had no bonus at all.

AI defense was flag removed from Bowmen. Simply put, it was not good idea from first place. Although it could look logical at first glance, since Bowmen has defense of 2, they also upgrade to Longbowmen, an unit with defense of 1. And that could give some bad results for AI.

	06-11-2002 22:31									#385
	Remove this text

player1,

I don't know how old you are, but in the "pure" communist regimes like in Mao's China, Stalin's Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia, communism made a worker's paradise in the only manner possible for them: you were one of the slaves or one of the guards.

There were some books written in the late 70's or early 80's by a defector who was a high ranking officer in the GRU. He did a book each on the Red Army, the GRU and Spetsnaz. Among the topics he covered was why he joined: he had no Party connections so no bureacratic appointments were possible, and he didn't want to be in a farm commune or factory, so the Army it was.

Anyways, his books show how the KGB, Army and Party were balanced by each other as they all strived to gain an advantage over the other. And the Army did quite well as managers of the industries needed to support the war machine. It was the Party that couldn't make the workers who were relegated to producing consumer goods and food do enough work to make life bearable.

To that end, I think a Communist government should get the same production as a Despotic government, and many free units to make it like good old mother Russia. And worker speed bonus should actually be a 25% penalty. As a good example as to why, in Poland, 25% of the land was used by people to grow vegetables and stuff for themselves, while 75% of the land was in commune farms. The commune farms produced about 20% of the food grown in Poland, the rest from the private lands. This in part lead to the food riots in the early 80's.

Otherwise, I look forward to testing your latest version. I like what you did with the AEGIS cruisers in ADM and reasoning.

I'll let you know how it goes.


D.

	07-11-2002 03:19									#386
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't think this belongs in this thread but yes, Communism in not in any way better then Monarchy (not Despotism, despostism is government with totaly retarded economy).
That's why it doesn't get a trade bonus like Republic or Democracy (which is indeed bit penality).

As for public labor (reflected by workers in civ), it was encourged in such contries. I remeber a tales of my own parents when they were woking in various "labor actions" in 60ties and 70ties. And I douibt that they got "paid" for such thing. It was a duty to perform in those days (and nobody realy complained about that). In fact, they have pretty good memories from those days.

On the other hand, Communism in Yugoslavia was pretty different from that in Russian or China. It used concepts of "public property" instead of "state property" and both communist and capitalist coutries were "frendly" (read: not hostile) towards Yugosalvia since it was on "borderline". That way, a lot of money came from westers states, which unfortunetly wasn't retuned yet today. So we since we eat out that money and lived relativly well, unit 80ties cames, when was a time to retun the debts. Then crisis came, and at the end (in 90ties) war and break up of Yugoslavia.

Last edited by player1 on 07-11-2002 at 03:27

	11-11-2002 17:03									#387
	Full PM-box? Change here!

VERSION 1.38 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.38

Jaguar Warriors get their old upgrade to Swordsmen restored. Since after patch 1.29f, you can still build unique units even after they should normally become obsolete. As byproduct of this, Aztecs can build Chariots again too (just if they wanna upgrade them to Horsemen).

Man-O-War gets defense of 3. They should be better then Frigate. But, with original stats, enemy could just bombard them and then sink with his own ships, making them in no way better them Frigate in defense. This should fix that. English UU was a little bit weak anyway.

Battleship gets higher cost of 240 shields. This is mostly done in order to balance out their good ROF, and price compared to Destroyer.

Bombers get their range increased to 8. Large bombers usually have extra fuel tanks, which give them higher operational range. Also it should make modern ships an easier target (it would be a little more difficult to get out of their operational range in one turn). Should be not too much unbalancing since bombers have no lethal bombard turned on. Also lowers the need of relocating Bombers every time you conquer enemy border city.

Number of extra happy faces gained with Longevity wonder is reduced to 1. Original change (2 happy faces) made that wonder just to much happiness oriented and made their primary role look a little bit unimportant. With this change, you should build Longevity if you really need it for growth, not just to take out unhappiness.


Also first PtW version is released too!
Look for thread in creaton forum (until it gets moved to files forums).

	11-11-2002 20:20									#388
	Put an end to popups!

Player 1, good job on continuing to balance your mod and come up with new ideas at the same time.

quote: Originally posted by player1 Since after patch 1.29f, you can still build unique units even after they should normally become obsolete.

Just FYI, this true only if you haven't had your Golden Age yet.

	11-11-2002 23:03									#389
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by alexman Player 1, good job on continuing to balance your mod and come up with new ideas at the same time. Just FYI, this true only if you haven't had your Golden Age yet.

Interesting.
So after you trigger GA it's ower.

Hmm... That could make someprobelm with some new PtW (and some old non-ptw) UU.

Still, I won't tweak upgrade paths anymore, since that would probably not fix all those UUs, and could make new problems too.

	14-11-2002 15:54									#390
	Got spare money?

One small update (v1.39)

Comments to changes in v1.39

Explorers defense changed back to 0. This is done mainly because I think that previous change was unnecessary. Since, for their cost of just 20 shields, they do scout and pillage missions 6 tiles deep in enemy territory. Making them have defense of 1 (and thus ability to retreat) would just make them too much powerful.

Last edited by player1 on 14-11-2002 at 17:36