15-11-2002 01:32									#391
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This is the temporary link to PtW version of this MOD (until it gets moved to files forum).

	26-11-2002 15:55									#392
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Hmm...
Actualy, that's real PtW version link too.

	26-11-2002 15:59									#393
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Now, OK people.


Here is a Retro-CHALLENGE!

How it works:
You should think about changes in this MOD and give some valid reson why something needs to be changed back to original values (as in vanilla Civ3).

Then post some good resons why should in be done.

As a reward, if reson was good enough, I would revert that chnage to original values.

	27-11-2002 01:19									#394
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Here is a Retro-CHALLENGE!

How about bringing back the original cost for musketmen? The reduced cost shortens the lifespan of knights, and now with PTW there are even more civs with knight-level UUs. It makes it too tempting to skip Chivalry and go directly for Cavalry. With the original cost, only rich civs could afford to instantly upgrade their pikemen when they got Gunpowder. This was also the case in real life, by the way: Pikemen did not disappear with gunpowder.

	27-11-2002 04:34									#395
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Personnaly I would think it would be OK, if all those civs would be able to still make Pikemen after they get Gunpowder.

But that's just not possibile. So you need to use one very expensive unit for defense. That's why I give them cost of 50.

It's still expenisve if you compare it's defense cost efficiency to Pikemen (3 for 30 vs 4 for 50).

And it's very much compatibile with Med. Infantry (4/2/1/cost40 vs 3/4/1/cost50). Don't you think?

Now I don't think that Muskets make Knight obsolete (for same resons why Spearmen doesn't make Horsemen obsolete).
Yes cities are usualy bigger with gives them extra +50% bonus on defense, but remember that in order to get Cavalry you need to research some very expensive techs.

And, by the way, upgrade difference between cost of 50 and 60 for Muskets is 40 vs 60 gold. That's 33% discount (not realy game breaking).

And you usualy need Monotheism (for Cathedrals, and later for wonders and Banks) and Pikemen (for better defense), more soon then Engineering (both prereq. for Chivarly).

	27-11-2002 04:38									#396
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Plus it changes Musketeers (4/4/1/cost 50) to very cool unit.

	05-12-2002 16:47									#397
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Things planned for next version:

Cossaks will be get AI defense flag removed.
I've seen Russians using Cossaks to defend cities instead of Infantry.
That's not good.

Still I'll keep their defense of 5. They would not be primary defenders, but they would be though to take out on open, and Musketmen although a little bit weaker are pretty cheap. Still, Riflemen comes pretty quickly, so all problems would be solved then.


Next, I plan to change Frigate a little bit.
First, Frigate will get attack of 3, which means stats 3(2)/2/4.
While Man-O-War will get attack of 4, but with original defense of 2, which means stats of 4(3)/2/4.
While Ironclads would get a little bit reduced cost of 90 (still more then original).

I would not increase bombard strenght of thsese units, since that would encourage "bomb with several, destroy with one" strategy too much.


My resoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and wooden ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironlcad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense.
With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand pretty vunerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

Ironclad is not so much owerpowering as before so price would be reduced to 90, but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Firgate.


What do you think?
Are these changes good?



P.S.
Also I'm thinking about giving Caravels back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys).
Also, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I would add defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vunerable then Caravel), but give them original cost od 60 (stats of 2/2/4, 60). With higher attack and bombard rating, Frigate is still better.

	06-12-2002 03:23									#398
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Version 1.4 is OUT!


Comments to changes in v1.4

Cossaks get AI defense flag removed, since I've seen Russians using Cossaks instead Infantry to defend cities. And that's not good.

Frigate gets attack of 3, while Man-O-War gets attack of 4, but with original defense of 2. My reasoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and sailing ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironclad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense. With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Has attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand is pretty vulnerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

These changes made Ironclad not so much powerful as before so price is reduced to 90 (but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Frigate).

Caravels get back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys). Plus, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I've added defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vulnerable then Caravel), but gave them original cost of 60 shields.

	12-12-2002 18:38									#399
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thing that could be interesting to add in next version:

Changing spy experience to Veteran (was Regular) for all non-communist governments and to Elite (was Veteran) for Communist government.

That way, I'll increase chances for spying missions, which are by default low.

I will not change Diplomat experience from Regular, so you'll have good reason to use spy instead of Diplomat for Steal Tech mission.


Also I'm thinking about adding Steal World Map mission to Diplomats.
World Map is most useful in ancient era anyway.


What do you think?

	13-12-2002 19:49									#400
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Several retro-changes I'm planning:

ROF for Batteship and AEGIS Cruiser will be changed back to 2.

With ROF of 3, they were realy powerfull, especialy Batteship, which could be as good as bomber, and also an assault ship.

Jet's bombard strenght will be put back to 2, while F-15 and Stl. Fighter will get 4.
Also Stl. Bomber gets original price of 240.
While this will make Fighter and Jet with same bomard strenght, remember that Jet has lethal land flag and range of 6.
Older aircraft changes didn't add much in gameplay, but have forced cheaper price of Stl. Bomber (and original price of 240 is better).

What do you think?
Good or bad?


P.S.
Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters.
Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good. On the other hand if I take that flag out, only human will use them for bomabrd against heavily wonded units, making good use of lethal flag. Still in most cases AI would not be fighting wounded units, and bom. str. of 2 is usualy not enough to take out 1hp unit with one try (he'll need at least several Fighters, which means a lot of Fighters never used for Air Super.)

So on the average taking out those flags would be good option.

Still, F-15 and St; Fighter will keep it as usual.

	13-12-2002 22:34									#401
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters. Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good.

I use a slightly modified version of your mod with both AI air defense and bombard checked for fighters and jet fighters and they've shot down plenty of my bombers in a past game. (although i crushed their base-city with land forces as retaliation )
So they used air superiority (while also try to bomb me with fighters).

Please don't take lethal bombing capability from fighter class planes. It makes the game much more enjoyable and real.

I don't give lethal to stealth fighter but his bombing capacity is about half of stealth bomber. It's a personal preference. I like to be able to defend against lethal threats (just the cruise missile can't be destroyed).

So in Civ3 1.29f lethal fighters work perfectly.
I still have to test it myself in Ptw 1.14f too.

	13-12-2002 22:57									#402
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Ok I'll keep AI strategies.

P.S.
But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

P.P.S.
And I'll NEVER remove lethal abilities.

They are go good from strategic perspective.

	14-12-2002 14:09									#403
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Player 1:

Good job on the mod, sounds great but I have a couple areas that I believe need improvement.

1) Bombarment values need to be increased. Firaxis has consistently increased the defense of buildings and citizens until it reached a staggering 16 in v. 1.29. This has made the vanilla civ 3 bombard values all but useless, changing ROF is a good idea but will not be usefull until the actual values of the bombardment are increased for all units. As for the low bombardment of jet fighters, I would like to know why. Jet fighters have all but replaced the bomber in the traditional role of attrition of enemy ground forces. this unit and the F-15 UU are in dire need of a major boost in bombardment value. As for the F-15 its attack and defense values should be altered slightly to make it better in air superiority

2) Riflemen should be 5/6/1 which would be simlar to your change of musketmen.

3) I have Infantry as 8/10/1, marines as 10/10/1 and parras as 8/12/1. Much for the reasons you have already stated.

I suggest the following mods:

Bombardment increases:

Bomber to 16 (lethal sea bombardment and ability to see subs)
Cannnon to 12
Helicopopter to 16 (modded from transport unit, lethal land and sea bombardment, ability to see subs)
Artillery to 16
Radar Arty, Battleship, F-15 and stealth aircraft to 20.
Jet Fighters to 16
Fighters to 12

Air unit mods:

Fighter :4(12)/5/2
Jet Fighter: 8(16)/10/2
Bomber:0(16)/2/2
F-15: 10(20)/12/2
Stealth Fighter 2(20)/4/2
Stealth Bomber: 0(20)/2/2

	14-12-2002 16:39									#404
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Looks too MAD.

But, we shall see.

	14-12-2002 18:35									#405
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Here we go again (another revision):

Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240)
AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3)

Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2)
F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2)
Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120)
Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200)

P.S.
And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).

	16-12-2002 10:24									#406
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Hi player1!

Would you mind explaining why the recent changes as shown in your post above? This was not mentioned in the first page of this thread.

I have modded my game to reflect your suggestions (as shown on the first page), with a little of my modifications here and there. Basically, my Fighters and Jets have Lethal Sea Bombard by carrying torpedos, Bombers has no Lethal Bombard because carpet bombing was the way they used to hit anything and they don't carpet-bomb the sea, Stealth Fighter and F-15 has Lethal Land and Sea Bombard due to advanced electronics and fly lower than Stealth Bombers, and Stealth Bomber has only Lethal Sea Bombard to give advantage to the Stealth Fighter. Something like the S.Bomber flies too high to really hit units that accurately.

Any comments on that? Thanks for this great thread! Unfortunately, I can't use your .bic file coz I play on my notebook and I can't get that to work thru LAN to my PC, and of all things, my Civ3 CD is missing.

BTW, any comments on increasing the transport capacity of a nucSub to 3? Seems pretty lame bringing only one, and in RL, nucSubs carry 16 Nukes (IIRC) per sub...

	16-12-2002 21:22									#407
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They are not yet implemented.
They are proposal.

They will be implemented when I say: "New version is OUT!"

Bascily changed bombard of ships a little bit lower and Jets bombard a little bit higher, plus original price of Stl. Bomber.
(I think you could find some extra discussion in PtW version thread)

I used no lethal for Bomber and Stl.Bomber (carpet OR flying high)
Lethal sea for Fighters (torpedos).
And leathal all for Jets, f-15 and Stl. Fighter (ROCKETS and electronic)


As for Nuc. Subs I haven't planned changes.

The limit is there to "glorify" ICBMs use.

P.S.
I'll make changes is few days.

	17-12-2002 06:47									#408
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But ICBMs ARE terrible, and nucSubs ARE feared because they can kill several cities. I know you are familiar with all this stuff.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question. I'll be looking forward to your next "update". I'm playing Civ3, not PTW, btw.

Thank you!

	17-12-2002 17:16									#409
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quote: But ICBMs ARE terrible, and nucSubs ARE feared because they can kill several cities. I know you are familiar with all this stuff.

But they are less terrible when enemy gets Integrated Defense.
(and tac. nukes ignore integ. defense)

	18-12-2002 04:15									#410
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Version 1.41 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.41

Spy experience was changed to Veteran for all non-communist governments and to Elite for Communist government. That way, I've increased success chances for spying missions, which are by default low. Note that Diplomat experience is still Regular, so you'll have good reason to use Spy instead of Diplomat for Steal Tech mission.

Also Steal World Map mission is added to Diplomats. World Map is most useful in ancient era anyway.

ROF for Battleship and AEGIS Cruiser is changed back to 2. With ROF of 3, they were really powerful, especially Battleship, which could be as good as bomber, and also an assault ship. Still in order to make Battleship more then "slightly better then Destroyer", it gets bombard strength of 10. AEGIS Cruiser also gets higher bombard strength of 6 too. Since Battleship is not good as before it gets price reduced to 220 (still more then original price of 200 shields).

Some planes get a little bit higher bombard rating. Jet Fighters get bombard rating of 4 (was 3), and F-15 and Stl. Fighter get bombard rating of 6 (was 4). This is mostly done to make these units more balanced compared to other naval and air units.

Stl. Bomber cost changed back to 240, since it IS worth that much. But, in order to make it balanced with Stl. Fighter, Stl. Fighter gets new price of 160 shields. Costly, but anything cheaper would make use of Stl. Bomber meaningless since Stl. Fighter has lethal bombard abilities.

	18-12-2002 19:55									#411
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Wow, cool! Thanks! Gotta solve my player and Civ start position problems first tho, but I'll be putting that in my "Custom scenario with rules from the post of Player1 of Apolyton.net"

Happy Holidays, Civ-vers!

	18-12-2002 21:29									#412
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quote: Originally posted by player1 But they are less terrible when enemy gets Integrated Defense. (and tac. nukes ignore integ. defense)

SDI defends against all nuclear attacks not just ICBM's

	18-12-2002 21:47									#413
	Put an end to popups!

Not sure about that.
(I've seen the opposite reports in these forums)

	10-01-2003 03:10									#414
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Version 1.42 is OUT!

Comments to changes in v1.42

Musketmen attack lowered to original value of 2 (but they still keep price of 50). With attack of 3, human player had big advantage against AI since he could nicely use Musketmen for attacks on open ground, while AI couldn't since Musketmen had no offense AI flag. On the other hand, giving Musketmen offense AI flag would not work well too, since in that case AI would also use them for suicidal attacks on cities (while there are many better and cheaper units for that, like Longbowmen).

But, even in that case, French Musketeer will keep its attack of 4, since with lower attack, it would just not be good offense unit.

Cossaks get their defense lowered back to 4. Testing showed that defense of 5 makes them too much powerful, since it makes them almost as good in defense as in attack.

Frigates get increased bombard strength to 3, while Man-O-War gets bombard strength of 4. This is all done in order to complement their increased attack ratings in last version. This should prove not unbalancing since these units still have poor defense. Since that change made Frigates even more better then Privateers, Privateers get their cost lowered to 50 shields.

In last version I've gone too far with limiting bombard strength of Battleship and AEGIS Cruiser. For that reason, they get slightly higher bombard ratings. Bombard rating of 12 for Battleship and 8 for AEGIS Cruiser.

Fighters get lethal land bombard added. Fighters were used for tactical bombing mission after all, and since they have pretty low bombard rating, this change will not be unbalanced.

Major changes for Longevity Wonder. Since it just doesn't give proper benefits in modern age, I made it available with Sanitation (industrial age) and removed all happiness bonuses. Now it could give some good benefits, especially after Hospitals are built.

	27-02-2003 07:14									#415
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Version 1.43 is OUT!

quote: Comments to changes in v1.43 Observation showed that AI, despite having airlift flag, was unable to airlift Cruise Missiles. So to fix this imbalance I removed airlift flag from Cruise Missiles. Knight to Cavalry upgrade looks pretty cheap considering it's benefits (+50% to offense and movement for just 10-20gp). And its devastating if done early in rennaissance age. To make this a little bit more balanced I increased cost of Cavalry to 90 shields. Despite higher cost of Cavalry, Cossaks will keep their cost of 80 shields, since their higher defense is not much impressive on its own. Also, after some consideration, I think that Great Wall does not need to give free walls anymore (it already gives defense bonus to walled cities). So I removed that ability.

	18-03-2003 06:35									#416
	Remove this text

Version 1.44 is out!

Comments to changes in v1.44

Foot Unit flag added to Scout, Explorer, Leader and King units, in order to make them transferable by helicopters. Since these units already got Airlift ability before, there is no good reason to prevent their transport by helicopters (it even makes some interesting strategies for king units).

	07-04-2003 03:41									#417
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small news item:
version of this MOD at www.civ3.com is also updated to reflect all recent changes done in this forum (current v1.44)

	03-05-2003 00:59									#418
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Version 1.45 is out!

Just minor changes:

Since Bombers in this MOD have operational range of 8, it seamed strange to leave Tactical Nukes with shorter range of 6. That's why I now increased bombard range of Tactical Nukes to 8 tiles.

I also fixed inconsistency of having Helicopters with longer range then Jet Fighters by putting operational range of Helicopters back to 6 tiles. Paratroopers still have airdrop range of 8, since they are carried by long range aircrafts, not helicopters.

	18-08-2003 10:51									#419
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Your a fool why are you doing this,you do this for the AI.Who cares if he has an army of obsolete units that is his weakness and us players should take advantage of that.

	19-01-2004 14:58									#420
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Conquests version of Patch Suggestion MOD has been released.

Link:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=106579