27-09-2002 00:51									#331
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep IMO, this is a very big change in gameplay with mixed effects. I don't like the idea.

Yes, it is a big change.
But maybe not too bit change.

quote: Originally posted by lockstep So making the Jaguar Warrior to Swordsman upgrade tactic impossible (as until v1.33 of your mod) is a good compromise. (BTW, when playing as the Zulus and having no horses, I also lose my own mobile unit at some point. Does that mean Impis should upgrade to Horsemen too?)

But you lose Impis after Gunpowder.
That's pretty late in game.
And even then, it's possibile that you also have no Saltpeter.

And some people realy like "pay 40gp, get upgraded unit" tactic.
You know, that could benefit Aztecs too.
Converting all those Jaguars to Horsemen (if not to Swordsmen).

quote: Originally posted by lockstep Skipping parts of the upgrade chain for a UU is one thing, entirely changing a UU's upgrade chain is another thing. And what if I'd like to build jaguar warriors (cheaper) and horsemen (more powerful on the attack, and still mobile) at the same time? What if I'd like to build jaguar warriors in the early middle age (which is impossible in v1.34 of your mod because Horseback Riding is needed for era advancement)?

Hmm...
You could just keep several weak cities unconnected with Horses.
Your more powerfull cities would probably not need such thing since they would be capable of building highly advanced units anyway. (and there is always pillaging Explorer)

Jaguars are just much more importatnt in ancient era then in medivial anyway.


P.S.
Somehow if you look more closely Jaguar Warriors are just better Chariots.
Cheaper and can go through Mountains and Jungles.


P.P.S.
What if I want to build Mounted Warriors after I get Chivarly?
Much cheaper and still with good attack.
Pretty similar probelm.

Unfortunately you can't get both "pay gold for upgrade" tactic and "build cheap unit" tactic with same unit.

	27-09-2002 01:22									#332
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Hmm... You could just keep several weak cities unconnected with Horses. Your more powerfull cities would probably not need such thing since they would be capable of building highly advanced units anyway. (and there is always pillaging Explorer)

If you think this is a valid tactic, then I suggest to make jaguar warriors upgrade to swordsmen (like in vanilla civ3) and disconnect some of your 'weak' cities from iron. (And don't forget that these cities will lack luxury ressources too, and therefore will need temples at higher difficulty levels to quell unhappiness).

quote: Jaguars are just much more importatnt in ancient era then in medivial anyway.

Some expert players, including Vel, do think they are still very useful in the middle age.

quote: Somehow if you look more closely Jaguar Warriors are just better Chariots. Cheaper and can go through Mountains and Jungles.

They are better chariots AND warriors. And if upgrading them to horsemen OR swordsmen makes sense, I'd rather stick with the solution of vanilla Civ3. Again, I think your original solution (make them upgrade to riflemen) was a better one.

	27-09-2002 05:02									#333
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep They are better chariots AND warriors. And if upgrading them to horsemen OR swordsmen makes sense, I'd rather stick with the solution of vanilla Civ3. Again, I think your original solution (make them upgrade to riflemen) was a better one.

On the other hand Jaguar to Horsemen just feels better then Jaguar to Swordsmen.

You could actuly use Swordsmen (city taker) & Jaguar (guerrila)combo for a long time without needless micromanagemnt.

After that, you'll upgrade your Jaguars to better Horsmen, and then make some new Jaguars with several specialized cities.

P.S.
I didn't liked original solution, since it too much unnatural when Aztecs don't have Horses.

P.P.S.
On the other hand, unablity to upgrade Jaguars the way as with other civ's Warriors is also something lacking.

P.P.P.S
I see Jaguar to Horsemen as best "in-the-minddle" solution.
I think on average it gives best results.

You can use them for a long time with best efficiency (together with Swordsmen which is essentail for city taking).

And in later time, you could always make several specilizaed training camps.

	27-09-2002 10:27									#334
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I understand that you don't like 'unnatural' upgrade paths, but for me 'specialiced' cities (unconnected to ressources on purpose) are unnatural, too.

Anyhow, it is very likely that Jaguar Warriors will upgrade to the new Medieval Infantry in PtW - either via Swordsmen or directly (skipping Swordsmen). And as this is a good solution (IMO), there'll be no need to change it in the PtW version of your mod.

	27-09-2002 16:14									#335
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maybe

We'll see.

	27-09-2002 16:19									#336
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By the way, as far as I know, M. Swordsmen stats are 4/2/1/cost 40, needs Iron (and needed tech. unknown).

So presonnaly, I would leave them with thse stats in PtW version of this MOD too.

	01-10-2002 02:13									#337
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NEWS ITEM:

This MOD has got its own Forum.
All thanks to Elucidus for providing needed forum space.

Link:
www.cdgroup.org/forums

	05-10-2002 17:31									#338
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quote: Originally posted by player1 By the way, as far as I know, M. Swordsmen stats are 4/2/1/cost 40, needs Iron (and needed tech. unknown).

According to the recent chat at CivFanatics, Feudalism is the prereq of the Medieval Infantry.

	08-10-2002 05:17									#339
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That forum got URL change:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3

	08-10-2002 14:41									#340
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Since Civ3 PtW is coming soon, I have some questions here.

How should Guerrila be implemented in PtW version of this MOD?


At first, I'll assume that Firaxis will make Guerrila with only offense AI flag selected.
Since, when you are lacking of resources, you could build Riflemen too (since Rifles don't upgarde to Guerrilla). And that's better option since Riflemen is cheaper and upgrades to Infantry, while Guerrila is not. Giving it defense flag would just give a lots of problems. It would be like Swordsmen with defense AI flag.


I have some possibile solutions.

Solution close to core Civ3: Swordsmen and Longbowmen upgrade to Guerilla. Guerrila has attack of 7 (or maybe even 8), and cost of 80.
The probelm with these solution it that's not enough compatibile with PS MOD itself. Original idea of getting these units upgrade to Riflemen is done in order to remove those units from build list in early Industrial age. Having Rilemen (attack of 5) and Longbowmen in same queue just doesn't feel right.


Solution close to idea of PS MOD: Guerrila has attack of 8 and cost of 80. Nothing upgardes to it, but on the other hand you get reource free unit with same offense power as Infantry, but a little lower price.
Solution looks good for me, and old Sowrd & Bow units are not hosed, since they cen be upgraded to Infantry as before in this MOD. Personnaly I would vote for this option.


Radical, but interesting solution: You get Guerrila with Nationalism. It's same as original, but with cost of 80. Riflemen get attack of 4, and offense AI flag removed. Infantry (in order to balance things) get attack lowered to 7. All old offense foot units (Sword & Bow) upgrade to Guerrilas.
This way you got early Industrail offense foot unit and anicent units get at top of their "upgarde chains". The only probelms are that Guerrilas maybe look "too modern" comapred to Riflemen (but it's probably not too much), that Guerrilas are supposed to be guerrilas, not "stormtroopers", and that whole idea looks too radical for this MOD (tech preq. change).


Comments?

	09-10-2002 02:40									#341
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Since Civ3 PtW is coming soon, I have some questions here. How should Guerrila be implemented in PtW version of this MOD?

It seems to me there's a fourth option, though it too may seem radical: add a new unit with the same stats, prereq, and graphics as the rifleman, but set it to offense only and have it be seperate from the defensive unit upgrade chain. Set Swordsmen and Longbowmen to upgrade to the new unit, and set it to upgrade to Guerrilla.

I know you probably don't want to add new units to your mod, but it would basically be a duplicate Rifleman. Having only an offense flag on it would ensure that the AI wouldn't build a dead-end defensive unit. The only problem I see is that the AI might build what will become in the Modern Age a dead-end offensive unit. Then again, Cavalry is also a dead-end, so it might not be too bad.

	09-10-2002 04:10									#342
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The problem with that is that you'll need to insert new folder files for new units which would duplicate Rilfleme art folder.

Pretty messy, especily for a MOD which is supposed to be 25KB BIC only.


P.S.
For now, 7/6/1, cost 80 and nothing upgardes to it, seems like probably most possibile solution (in PS MOD spirit).

(at least, if you don't have Rubberm you'll get an offnsive
unit )


P.P.S.
By the way, what all of you think of Bezerk unit? (6/2/1/70, needs nothing, Amphibious, replaces Longbowmen)

As far as I can see, I would probably make it at least 10 shields cheaper (since Lonbowmen is cheaper too).

And maybe reduce attack to 5 and make it even more cheaper. Which would give 5/2/1/50 unit.

	17-10-2002 18:49									#343
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Help me, AI is just building Paratroopers instead of Tanks


When AI gets needed tech, it builds them instead of Tanks.
(paras have 8/10/1 stats)

Is there are way to prevent that AI suicidal behavior?

Is the same thing happening with original Civ3 paratroopers?


P.S.
Luckly this behavoir stops after AI gets Modern Armor.


P.P.S.
Maybe making them Defense AI unit would be temporary solution?
Anyway, since AI usualy uses defense AI strategy units for Pillaging, maybe that idea is not bad at all.

	18-10-2002 01:28									#344
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I sent a mail to Speed Bump (Barry Caudill) about this, and here is response:

Me:

quote: Barry, This time I'm not mailing because of the new update. It's just about one little "AI problem" AI is just building Paratroopers instead of Tanks (in this MOD). When AI gets needed tech, it builds them instead of Tanks. (paras have 8/10/1 stats) Is there are way to prevent that AI suicidal behavior? Is the same thing happening with original Civ3 paratroopers? (6/8/1) Is that a BUG? P.S. Luckly this behavoir stops after AI gets Modern Armor. The way it is now, I have no idea what to do. Thanks, Andrej Damjanovic (aka player1) Free MOD developer

Speed Bump:

quote: See Soren's answer below. We just made a change to the AI for PTW that should fix this problem. The AI will no longer put such an emphasis on operational range. Thanks for the update. Sincerely, Barry Caudill QA Manager Firaxis Games

quote: From: Soren Johnson It is almost certainly the increase in operational range... although the stat changes might make a difference too. I would suggest increasing the cost, or decreasing the range and/or the ADM. You could probably get away with just decreasing the range.

For now, I think i'll reduce operation range back to 6 for paratroopers.
(and do same to Helicopters in order to make them balanced "one to another")

.

.

P.S.
By the way here are plans for next version:

Changes in ver 1.35

After some playtesting I moved back Steal Tech spy mission cost to original full value. It must have been something with 1.29f Civ3 patch. Since buying techs looks a little bit more expensive, and thus makes stealing tech in modern and industrial area way to cheap (in cases when 1-3 civs have needed tech). This should fix that.

It seems that there was a bug in AI, which made AI controlled player to use Paratroopers as main offense force instead of Tanks, if you increase Paratrooper's operational range value to anything higher them 6 (confirmed by Firaxis AI guys).

Until Civ3:PtW comes out I'll reduce Paratroopers op. range back to 6. Same will be done to Helicopters in order to make them balanced with Paratroopers (so they'll both have same op. range value of 6).

	18-10-2002 01:54									#345
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VERSION 1.35 is OUT!

Changes in ver 1.35

After some playtesting I moved back Steal Tech spy mission cost to original full value. It must have been something with 1.29f Civ3 patch. Since buying techs looks a little bit more expensive, and thus makes stealing tech in modern and industrial area way to cheap (in cases when 1-3 civs have needed tech). This should fix that.

It seems that there was a bug in AI, which made AI controlled player to use Paratroopers as main offense force instead of Tanks, if you increase Paratrooper's operational range value to anything higher them 6 (confirmed by Firaxis AI guys).

Until Civ3:PtW comes out I'll reduce Paratroopers op. range back to 6. Same will be done to Helicopters in order to make them balanced with Paratroopers (so they'll both have same op. range value of 6).

	25-10-2002 16:00									#346
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There is one idea that poped in my head, but I don't know is it good, nor should it be added in this MOD. So I need some comments.

It's about Cannons.

First let's compare Strenght of bombarding units.

Artillery (Bomb. 12, ROF 2, cost 80)
vs Cannons (Bomb. 8, ROF 1, cost 40):

Against defense target of 6,
Cannon takes out 0.57 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.33 HPs

Against defense target of 4,
Cannon takes out 0.67 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.5 HPs

Against defense target of 10,
Cannon takes out 0.44 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.09 HPs


Catapults (Bomb. 4, ROF 1, cost 20)
vs Cannons (Bomb. 8, ROF 1, cost 40):

Against defense target of 4,
Catapult takes out 0.5 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.67 HPs

Against defense target of 3,
Catapult takes out 0.57 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.73 HPs

Against defense target of 6,
Catapult takes out 0.4 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.57 HPs

.

So, at the end, Cannon is more then twice weaker then Artillery (thanks to lower ROF), plus has lower range.

Also, Cannon is NOT twice better then Catapults. Two Catapults do more HP damage then one Cannon.

.

Thus, I propose to decrease cost of Cannons to 30 shields (from 40 shields).

What do you think?

Would that be OK?

	27-10-2002 03:35									#347
	Increase Your PM Length

Giving Tanks,MAs and MIs an operational range of 8 but no orders to use it works for me.

A cost of 30 for the cannon shouldn't be unbalancing. As these tend to hang around and only be useful in large numbers, the upkeep would be the limiting factor anyway.

It would make upgrading catapults half price which something maybe.

	27-10-2002 03:46									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me Giving Tanks,MAs and MIs an operational range of 8 but no orders to use it works for me.

Are you compaltly sure that this work (is it playtested)?
If answer is yes, then I'll add that to my MOD as "partial solution".

quote: Originally posted by Nor Me A cost of 30 for the cannon shouldn't be unbalancing. As these tend to hang around and only be useful in large numbers, the upkeep would be the limiting factor anyway. It would make upgrading catapults half price which something maybe.

That was my original thought.

	28-10-2002 18:33									#349
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Player1, putting the same reply/thread in multiple forums can be confusing. My first reply to this question was:
here

Basically, the governor at least prefers units with a higher operational range and ignores that airdrop flag!

While I have not playtested this exact alteration but I am currently playing a modern warfare scenario with an altered version of The Balancer mod. I can confirm that:

1. the A. I. does build altered tanks, MI and MA in large numbers and uses them correctly so far.

2. I cannot paradrop them even using the only keyboard short cut I know (remember upgrading?)

3. The A. I. builds Tanks,MI and MA over a 12/12/1, cost 190, ampibious, all terrain as roads, airdrop range 8 Commando.

This is the problem.
You could try asking Elucidus why this unit had airdrop but no operational range or why neither A.I. offence nor defence were checked and maybe get at least one positive whatever of this effect as a result.

Now which forum do I use for pontificating on cannons or possibly radar artillery? What if I want to mention your stealth figther/bomber balance in that post?

	28-10-2002 20:14									#350
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Does anyone know why I'm a settler again? I'm sure I wasn't last time!

(Contiued from here )
...
The radar artillery needs to be better at bombarding to be balanced but you have given it a movement of 2.

My suggestion is a compromise. A 0/0/2 21.2.1 with blitz, its better at the old tactic of sitting pretty and blasting 'em but is considerably worse at hit and run.
A bomard strengh of 21 is in line with the MA and MI defences of 14 and 18 compared to artillery vs. tanks or infantry.
It can now divide its fire but that is not too powerful compared with multiple 2/3 cost artillery.

A movement 2 radar artillery is useful in many situations where bombers are less. A bomber has to be in 6(or 8) squares of the frontline wheras a movement 2 artillery on railroad can run much further away.
This should perhaps then be toned down.

I apologise for a grave admission. Player1, I have not so far praised this MOD.
Sheer genius. Every Mod I have made has included its changes (No cheques will follow however.)

	28-10-2002 22:10									#351
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Sorry for posting at mulitple topics, but that was only way to get some opinion from those who don't play this MOD.

As far as I think, I would not give RA any boost since, in that time your cities would have 50-90 shields output so 40shoeld difference wont' matter that much more, and plus 2 movment poiunt can be pretty nasty think.

I remember that someone even complained that's it's way owerpowered (use 1 mov. point to get inside borders and 2nd mov. point to bombard in same turn). I don't think it's owerpowred, but it does balances increased cost.

On the other hand Cannos are comp. different thing.
(wekaer then Capatults in any respect)

	28-10-2002 22:12									#352
	Got spare money?

Lukckly, I won't have that "commando" problem, since my rules are pretty close to original.

	28-10-2002 22:16									#353
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Also, it's good that it will be fixed in PtW.

P.S.
It's best to post anything MOD related right here.
But I see no probelm posting on other places too.

	29-10-2002 18:27									#354
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Version 1.36 is OUT!


Changes in ver 1.36

Operational range for Helicopters and Paratroopers is changed back to 8 again. But in order to fix Paratrooper/Tank problem I did one different thing. I added operational range of 8 to Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor and Mech. Infantry. Since they have no airdrop option, it won't matter in gameplay at all, but it would trick AI to see them as more worthy because of "higher" operational range.

Normally, Cruise Missiles can be loaded into transports directly, but not from city since they have no active "load flag". I fixed that bug and added load flag when needed. Also, I added them airlift option, in order to make them transportable through air (if you already can by Transports why not through air too).

Cannons get reduced cost of 30 shields. This is done because their firepower is on average weaker then firepower of two catapults. This should make them more worthy (if you build them in increased numbers).

	30-10-2002 16:28									#355
	Summary files Increase Your PM Length

I have modified NetHog's summary files for v.1.36 of this mod. Hope somebody might find it useful. All credit goes to player1 and nethog, comments and bug reports to me. Zip file containing pdfs with Tech Tree and Unit Summary is hopefully attached.

Kuratko

Version 1.36c uploaded that corrects one error and some typos.

Attachment: player1_1.36c_sum.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by Kuratko on 31-10-2002 at 14:29

	30-10-2002 16:33									#356
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nice...

	30-10-2002 16:53									#357
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Kuratko,
I found one error in those PDFs!

Quote from PS MOD readme:

quote: All artillery units, Tanks, Modern Armor and Mech. Infantry gain Wheeled ability. This prevents moving them on Jungle and Mountain tiles if there is no road. Note: You can move those units on enemy roads, you just don't get road movement bonus. ... Panzer Tanks get Wheeled ability.

So you should add "No jungle/mountain" to their description in units PDF.

	30-10-2002 18:36									#358
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quote: Originally posted by player1 So you should add "No jungle/mountain" to their description in units PDF.

Added for Artillery, Tank, Mech. Infantry, Modern Armor and Panzer.
Cannon and Catapult already had it.
Thanks for checking.

Corrected version uploaded (see three posts back).

	30-10-2002 19:01									#359
	Support Apolyton

Also, player1, I have some suggestions that you might consider in the next version of your mod:

1. What about raising the fortress defense bonus to 100%. In the current state I find them hardly useful....
2. Setting Privateer as a Barbarian sea unit. To me this seems a logical choice. It would make overseas expansion more difficult but still tractable using galleys (they will have 2hp, galleys with 2 hp are rather weak).
3. More controversial: What about improving the jungle to F/S/C=1/1/0? I know they can be cut but still it seems to me that civilizations starting in jungles are severely handicapped. Though bad luck is part of the game, jungle might be a too big penalty. On the other hand, jungles can help to separate two civs for some time which might be a good thing, I don't know, what do you think?
4. I still have a problem with Explorer. As it is, I rarely use it as an Explorer as it comes too late. I would either move it to earlier tech (Map Making?) or rename it as I use it rather as a rapparee destroying foreign improvements and 'spying'. Moving it earlier, however, would make it too strong with movement of 2 and 'all terrain as roads' which in turn would further weaken expansionistic trait. What do you think?

Kuratko

	30-10-2002 20:55									#360
	Build queue Remove this text

Yet another addition to the PSM mod: Annotated build queue in version compatible with the ver. 1.36 of this mod. The zip file contains units_32.pcx that should be copied to \Art\City Screen folder. Arrows close to unit icons in the build queue (and also in the military advisor) show how many times unit can be upgraded. The second file is buildings-small.pcx that should be copied to \Art\units and says in the build queue the following:
number of golden coins = maintenance
number of blue rectangles = culture
number of green bars = increase in production
number of red crosses = pollution
green cross = clears pollution

Again, please let me know about errors.
This work is again based on several previous mods.

Kuratko

Attachment: player1_1.36_buildqueue.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).