07-03-2002 02:11									#1
	Should space race even be a victory condition? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

IRL if the world works together we may be able to send a small team of scientist to Mars by 2050. This accomplishment is unlikely to happen, but it is possible.

However the idea of one country sending an entire colony off to journey toward AC by 2050 is absurd. Therefore, shouldn't the space race victory be eliminated?

I know its just a game, and victory conditions can set before playing. But the space race victory never seems to statisfy me.
However the ship itself is beautiful. It is even more phallic than the car the Ambiguously Gay Duo drive.

	07-03-2002 04:11									#2
	Put an end to popups!

hmm, don't have much support do you?

The game would suck otherwise. There would be no suspense, because the biggest civ would always win.

	07-03-2002 04:24									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The space victory has always been in Civ, its a tradition. Besides, its the only satisfying victory that builders can achieve.

UN victory: You flip a coin to see if you've won.
Cultural: All of a sudden from nowhere, the game says that you've won.

Whereas with the spaceship victory, you actually have to work at building it, discovering the advances that allow it, and ensure you have the resources to build it. So what if its not exactly realistic to have a colony being sent to another star system before 2050. It could happen, much more possibility than a spearman versus a tank!!

	07-03-2002 04:50									#4
	Disagree.. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This is where I'll disagree... look, could have any Civilization have won WITHOUT ANY combat? NO! But all of a sudden you can... you just expand, then discover advances, build parts, and win... I for one, always go for the Domination.

	07-03-2002 06:03									#5
	Tired of ads?

even in the most peaceful games i have played, i still can't aviod war. becasue eventually i get so powerful that everyone else, even old allies start to hate me.

and it would not be a problem for the US to send men to mars and back. not easy, it would require the country getting behind it like we did for the moon, but it could be done, i say...by 2020, and with time to spare.

that said, do i think it is going to happen? hell no it ain't going to happen we are to busy with a "war" :P going on, and too concerned about who wins the super bowl or what happens to ross and rachel to do cool things like actually explore space, or even our own planet.

alright, rant aside, the space race vicotry is cool. domination is only fun when i have a bad day.

	07-03-2002 06:51									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I like winning by building a space ship. Some times I am playing on a large map. I play with culture win turned off. And sometimes there is so much stuff to conquer that I just dont feel like doing it, so I build a spaceship instead. Also it is the only victory condiction that comes with a movie.

	07-03-2002 09:12									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Jawa Jocky, the problem is comparing to RL ... in an alternate world technology and science could be far ahead of our own in the same amount of time.

Just imagine if somehow there was no Dark Age at either 1200 BC or 400 AD! All that lost time, and the cost of getting back to where we were before the Dark Age, could have been spent going forward!

In Civ there need never have been any Dark Age AND you have civs lead by people who are highly driven to race to the top of the tech tree. In our world, if a civ was born in 4000 BC, managed to survive to today, and had a huge focus on maximizing science the entire time (this describes the average human player) maybe AC wouldn't seem so far off today.

I could see not thinking FTL is feasible, but don't base things on our timeline or rate of progress. Its an alternate world.

	07-03-2002 12:34									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Civ isn't meant to be a representation of Earth. The goal of the game is to see if you can do better than we have in real life. That's why its so cool to end up having rifleman around 0 A.D. should firaxis make sure you can't do that? Heck, why not just make the entire game be from a watcher's stand point, watching earth's history unfold the same exact way everytime with the same history as real life.

	07-03-2002 21:39									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Civ isn't meant to be a representation of Earth. The goal of the game is to see if you can do better than we have in real life. That's why its so cool to end up having rifleman around 0 A.D.

Well, that's one of many goals. As others have said, one of the beauties of Civ/Smac/Etc is that you can build your own goals, i.e. OCC or 5CC or the "early transcend" victories for SMAC.

As one of the columns said, some people play for role-playing, others make it a technical challenge to find the 'best' strategies, while others try to play a certain style or accept self-imposed constraints.

Jawa, If you don't like the spaceship victory, turn that option off I personally like it...
-belchingjester

	07-03-2002 21:42									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like the ship win....it's got a decent movie (which are rare as hen's teeth in civ3), and is actually kinna fun to do....beats the hell out of conquest, culture, un wins.... ::sigh::

-=Vel=-

	07-03-2002 22:48									#11
	Put an end to popups!

It's all just a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the spaceship thing is silly and brings too much sci-fi into the game. I understand the idea behind it- the first nation to colonize another planet would perpetuate it's people and civilization beyond the life expectancy of earth, etc. To me it's still silly though, but to each their own.
As far as Mars goes, I think that we are ready to undertake that challenge right now. It's nothing more than another trip to the moon with a longer journey. Think about the state of medicine and technology when Neil Armstrong did his thing compared to now. It's the biggest tragedy of the human race that we have stagnated in this way. As George Carlin said, we could have been magnificent, but instead we settled, for stuff like sneakers with little lights on them...

	07-03-2002 23:03									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i always turn off the space race a) it seems like your running away from your problems on earth(oops i ruined my planet, better go find a new one) b) its kinda boring c) i think they faked the moon landings , if they went to the moon 30+ years ago ,why did we stop going , why didnt the russians ever land there and why cant we do it today? i think the van allen belt wont let them very far past the planets atmosphere. its all a majik trick

	07-03-2002 23:33									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes,

Keep it. After playing for 20+ hours I want to see "the win". I don't want to continue playing another 10 hours in which the outcome is obvious.

Could quit and declare myself the winner at some point, but doesn't seem right.

	07-03-2002 23:52									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by reefer addict i always turn off the space race a) it seems like your running away from your problems on earth(oops i ruined my planet, better go find a new one) b) its kinda boring c) i think they faked the moon landings , if they went to the moon 30+ years ago ,why did we stop going , why didnt the russians ever land there and why cant we do it today? i think the van allen belt wont let them very far past the planets atmosphere. its all a majik trick

It's all Galileo's fault. He actually tried to say the the earth moved. Get that! And some people actually believed him. Imagine that!

	08-03-2002 00:10									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You've gotta have the space race really, in my opinion, it's a civ tradition and allows scientific and industrial players to get a victory without conquering everyone.
I think the diplo victory is more silly, for starters it actually has no logical grounding-the secretary general of the UN isn't the All-Powerful ruler of the world and never will be. Secondly, the UN could have had so much more power in the game, like the planetary council thing in SMAC (from what i gather, I've never played it)
So, I think-scrutinise the diplo victory as it makes no sense, but leave the space race as its a good victory method.

Last edited by Scooby_Doo on 08-03-2002 at 01:05

	08-03-2002 01:17									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I want a re-count! If we counted hanging chads I bet my idea would have been in the majority.

I didn't think my suggestion would be that popular, but I'm suprised its only hovering at 10%. It sounds like the question should have been about the Diplomatic Victory, which IMO too is the worst. It think most of my complaints would be resolved, if it took a certain amount of future techs before you could finish the ship. Now that the settlers work better when in automation I don't mind playing into the modern era.

Now a confession. I have never won on a level past Warlord without using the Space race (only 2 Mon. wins). Maybe my frustration with the ease of the Space race is really my frustration about being a below average player. (I'll have to consult Freud).

	08-03-2002 02:42									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You make a good point about the diplomatic victory, Scooby. Just goes to show that conquest is the only real winning condition.

Think about this- What if my nation built it's spaceship second and then conquered your colony on Alpha Centauri?

	08-03-2002 03:33									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Brutus66 You make a good point about the diplomatic victory, Scooby. Just goes to show that conquest is the only real winning condition. Think about this- What if my nation built it's spaceship second and then conquered your colony on Alpha Centauri?

Or....what if you build it 2nd but by that time had technology for faster engines and got their 1st. (I just remembered that in earlier civs you could build a lighter ship (less parts) and get there quicker)

	09-03-2002 00:10									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Think about this- What if my nation built it's spaceship second and then conquered your colony on Alpha Centauri?

Yes, good idea, but is far beyond the scope of a civ game nowadays, sadly.
It would be quite good to have a combined Civ/SMAC megagame spanning two planets, wouldn't it?

I think most of the victory conditions are flawed, some more than others, but they do add extra flavour to the game, I suppose.

I think the spaceship victory should stay, but some of the others do need serious re-thinking as they just seem tacked on. The "standard" two (domination and spaceship) have been with civ for a long time and feel much more satifying and fleshed out than the others which don't seem to reward the player at all. Other than one pop up- "Er...well, that's it then. Good game old chum! Bye"
Wheres the fun in that?

I'm really beginning to hate the diplo victory now!

	09-03-2002 05:23									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by reefer addict i always turn off the space race a) it seems like your running away from your problems on earth(oops i ruined my planet, better go find a new one)

That's a strange view from a resident of a country almost entirely populated by immigrants from Europe and elsewhere. There was a time historically, when I guess the American continent was as far away in the imagination as Alpha Centauri is now.

The Space victory is a perfectly plausible scenario. On Earth we currently have the technology to destroy ourselves, or poison ourselves with pollution, many times over, so who is to say that will not happen over the next 50 years, especially with maniacs like Osama and Saddam on the loose. The escape to another planet has been a staple of science fiction for many years and is a fitting (and somewhat ironic) end to "civilization".

	09-03-2002 21:35									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There should be one more vote for "Yes". I think I accidentally voted "No".

I like the victory condition but I think I'd prefer it come at the very end of the tech tree so I can get to the rest of the techs. Anyone with some advice? Has anyone changed it so? How?

	09-03-2002 22:26									#22
	Suffering from ads?

I vote no for the spacerace even though its how I win almost all of my games (that I bother to finish). I never try to win by conquest, and I've never won by culture, diplomacy can be tricky (won and lost). So its usually spacerace for me. There are two problems though. It never seems like much of a race. Maybe its because there are no variations in the spaveship build scheme. With CIV2 I can recall much tighter nailbiting races trying to build the racer model after another civ had launched the minimum model. My second problem with the spacerace is that it becomes the complete focus of my civ in the modern era. Crank up science-get the tech, crank up production- build the part, ensure defense -WIN. Turning off spacerace is not the answer. Builders need another way to win (dont ask me how)!

	09-03-2002 23:23									#23
	Tired of ads?

Shameless Plug -

I don't like the space race as written by Firaxis, so I made it more challenging. Check out my Space Race mod -

Space Race Mod

	10-03-2002 16:35									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't like how the space race victory is done so I also chose to change it, but I made it a lot more simple:

For each SS part I added 100 shields in production, this makes it take much longer to finish, and thereby we have reached future tech before launching the SS.

	14-03-2002 16:23									#25
	Got spare money?

I'm all for the Space Race victory, being a peaceful builder most of the time. But the way the victory is achieved is cut too short.

You simply build all components and launch. Wow! Exciting!. Sure there's SOME rush from racing against others who are close to it, but its still not quite good enough.

What they should've done was to make it something like they did in Civ II, where the ship has to successfully land on the planet near Alpha Centauri before you win the victory. This way you can either build every possible component for the ship and launch, or if someone else has already launched, you can simply build a ship with less colonists and modules and better propulsion systems, therefore actually building a ship capable of overtaking the other civ's ship and making it to Centauri first.

Ah I remember playing Civ II TOT and witnessing my Celtic neighbours build a ship and launch it. My heart was racing much faster as my civ scrambled about trying to assemble a faster ship that would make it to Centauri before the other one (even though the other one has already been launched). Though I managed to beat them to it, it was a close race.

Just my opinion about the Space Race victory. It definitely belongs, as it would be our greatest achievement on this dying planet of Earth. Even if we can't do it before 2050, it is going to be the pinnacle of scientific advancement of humanity on Earth, as it will insure our survival when the planet finally keels over on us (environmentalism came too late to save Earth from this Planetdeath disease).

	14-03-2002 16:39									#26
	Re: Should space race even be a victory condition? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky IRL if the world works together we may be able to send a small team of scientist to Mars by 2050. This accomplishment is unlikely to happen, but it is possible. However the idea of one country sending an entire colony off to journey toward AC by 2050 is absurd. Therefore, shouldn't the space race victory be eliminated? I know its just a game, and victory conditions can set before playing. But the space race victory never seems to statisfy me. However the ship itself is beautiful. It is even more phallic than the car the Ambiguously Gay Duo drive.

Yeah, but think of what could have happened if the US or the USSR had not got involved respectively in the Vietnam and Afghanistan.

If the money spent on fighting had been spent on space exploration, it may well have been possible to reach AC by 2050.

If the US had just kept up its drive for space exploration there could be people on Mars today.

When playing CIV we have to make a choice at the end game of conquest or space travel. If we didn't have that choice then we'd all end up taking the same strategy every game.

	14-03-2002 16:56									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

I like the space race because it either prompts world conflict (close game with players competing to launch) or allows a runaway victory to be drawn to a close without needing to go through all the combat required for dominance. If you'fe in the lead its your choice whether to build the spaceship. If you're not in the lead its a spur to get off your butt and DO something about it. The game where four nations including mine were racing for the launch is probably the only really exciting end-game I've played.

	14-03-2002 19:08									#28
	Yes Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The space race adds a lot of tension to the end game. The requirement for uranium and aluminum can lead to plenty conflict. Moreover, it gives the small civs a chance at winning. The first regent game I won was a space win with the Greeks. I had a small island with maybe 11 cities on it and a micro island with 2 cities on it. (This was on a huge map.) I was able to keep buying techs from Lizzie, mostly with luxuries, while remaining at peace and focused on production. If 2050 is deemed unrealistic then Firaxis can extend the game to 2100 and increase the tech requirements.

	14-03-2002 20:32									#29
	It ends the game in the middle Got spare money?

I think space race should be in there for people who like to have it. Personally, I always turn it off. Finishing off the game with huge wars with tanks and bombers is a lot of fun, IMHO, and it really annoys me when that's interrupted by the game becoming just one huge production race for these spaceship parts and then the game ends just when I'm about to go off pilliging and destroying

I feel the same way about Diplomatic Victory. If that's your game style, then great. But personally, I like the Domination Victory.