13-03-2002 19:24									#1
	The Saudi Peace initiative - Yes or No Got spare money?

Should the Saudi Peace initiative be implemented with all of the ramifications that it would involve.

i.e.

Complete withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlements to 67 border.
Normalisation of relations between Israel and the Arab states.
Complete security guarantee given for Israel and Palestine by both USA & Europe.


It sounds good to me, and I am at a lose as to why it has not been done before.

	13-03-2002 19:46									#2
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quote: Complete security guarantee given for Israel and Palestine by both USA & Europe.

Iīve heard about it, but what does that mean in detail? What would happen, if there are, e.g. terracts in Israel despite the guarantees?

	13-03-2002 19:54									#3
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I do think that if you take away the occupation and associated injustices this will go along way towards underminning the teror groups. But you are right the attacks would not stop immediately so there would have to be an impartial body that could overview security issues between the countries. I think though that there would have to be an agreement by all concerned that such attrocities would not be tolerated and backed up by US and European clout to inforce. I am short on the hows, but i do think that given the right support a workable frame work could be achieved.

	13-03-2002 20:06									#4
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Against.

As a whole, it's pretty good. Except the settlement blocks part and of course the Ancient City which are not issues I can compromise on.

But not now. We cannot trust the Pal leadership in arresting ticking bombs and they want us to give them all this land, 10 km from Tel Aviv?

Not in the next decade and not before the seventh war.

	13-03-2002 20:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone I think though that there would have to be an agreement by all concerned that such attrocities would not be tolerated and backed up by US and European clout to inforce. I am short on the hows, but i do think that given the right support a workable frame work could be achieved.

Israel cannot stop teracts, what makes you think European sissy sodiers will succeed?

	13-03-2002 20:22									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Israel cannot stop teracts, what makes you think European sissy sodiers will succeed?

Sissy soldiers

Don`t bit the hand that feeds you Eli. Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict, and that it is only because of US money and European trade that Israel exists anyway........ No need to thank us .

Whats your objection to the movement of the settlements. and when you say Ancient city do you mean jerusalem. Would you not consider making it an internation protectorate, a city of God, neutral, neither yours nor theirs but everyones?

	13-03-2002 20:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Sissy soldiers

quote: Don`t bit the hand that feeds you Eli.

Yeah. The EU really helps.

quote: Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict,

What?
I remember that in the independence war we got our weapons from Czhechoslovakia. Not the US, and not the EU.
I also remember the Kadesh Campaign, when the French and the British cowardy withdrew without helping at all.
I remember the French embargos, and the Sherbourg(sp?) ships, and I remember that the US started helping us in 1973 only when we were on the verge of destroying Cairo and Damascuc.

quote: and that it is only because of US money and European trade that Israel exists anyway........ No need to thank us .

Yes, the US aid and EU trade are important to us, but you're exaggerating.

quote: Whats your objection to the movement of the settlements.

How can I support ethnic cleansing of Jews in the West Bank?

quote: and when you say Ancient city do you mean jerusalem. Would you not consider making it an internation protectorate, a city of God, neutral, neither yours nor theirs but everyones?

I'm talking about the Ancient City of Jerusalem, not all Jerusalem.
After long long long period of no violence, steady economic development and no incitement I might agree to ceding some parts of East Jerusalem. That 1 square kilometer in the middle stays ours at any price.

	13-03-2002 20:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: Remember the IDF has been bailed out in every major conflict, What? I remember that in the independence war we got our weapons from Czhechoslovakia. Not the US, and not the EU.

Donīt worry, theyīll be in the EU sooner or later

	13-03-2002 20:51									#9
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Ethnic cleansing of Jews (settlements), I have never heard it called that before. I have heard them called illegal and provocative.
Does that 1 sq mile you talked about include the Dome of the Rock, because then we (figuratively speaking) are going to start getting into all kinds of trouble.

	13-03-2002 21:01									#10
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Eli - Tell me do you believe in the greater Israel idea (what ever that is) re settlements. And can you explain your thoughts on the ancient city idea and why you would want that to stay Israeli and not become neutral.

	13-03-2002 21:04									#11
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Additional

Also i presume that you voted against do you not have another alternative, Are there any flouting around in Israel.

Whats the feeling over there on this peace proposal.

	13-03-2002 21:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Ethnic cleansing of Jews (settlements), I have never heard it called that before. I have heard them called illegal and provocative.

It doesnt change the fact that forcebly removing 200,000 Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is ethnic cleansing.

quote: Does that 1 sq mile you talked about include the Dome of the Rock, because then we (figuratively speaking) are going to start getting into all kinds of trouble.

It includes the Dome of the Rock, the whole temple mount and more.

quote: Eli - Tell me do you believe in the greater Israel idea (what ever that is) re settlements. And can you explain your thoughts on the ancient city idea and why you would want that to stay Israeli and not become neutral.

No. Re-Settlement of Eretz Israel was important before 1948. Since then, the goal of an independent Jewish State was achieved. And Israel is not living the Greater Israel dream anymore.

As for Jerusalem. This place is holy for us, it's been the center of our aspirations and existance for 3000 years and bla bla bla, you know the rest.

Yes, I know it's holy for the Muslims too. They have the full right to pray there whenever they want, as long as they dont bother us from going there like they did in September 28th 2000.
But the area stays under our control.
I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots.

	13-03-2002 21:28									#13
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"I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots."

Eli your so ambiguous, what are you trying to say .


What about the peace proposal theirs or yours. Yhere must be some ideas flouting around out there that don`t involve chariots and long sticks.

	13-03-2002 21:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Eli your so ambiguous, what are you trying to say .

Merkava is Hebrew for chariot.

quote: What about the peace proposal theirs or yours. Yhere must be some ideas flouting around out there that don`t involve chariots and long sticks.

My opinion.
If in 10-15 years of no violence and no incitement they will agree to the following :
1) The West Bank, except the 2-3 major settlement blocks.
2) The Gaza Strip, plus some land in the Halutza sands in exchange for the WB settlement blocks.
3) Most of their demands in Eastern Jerusalem, except the Ancient city and couple more neighborhoods.
4) NO Right of Return.
5) No military.
6) No alliances with countries hostile to Israel.
7) Israel has full control over the Pal air space.
8) Compensations to the Pal refugees and to those Israeli settlers who will have to be removed will be paid by the EU and the US.
9) Israel will have the full right to do whatever it wants if any part of the agreement is not fullfilled.

	13-03-2002 21:47									#15
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Overall the plan seems a good idea.

Basicly, it goes toward all the demands the Palestinians may ever hope to fullfill so it will empty any rethorical support on terrorist acts.

This will weaken the support on terrorist groups:
- Formally they can no longer be presented to Palestinians as
heroic resistance forces. They will stand as the Crime Organizations that they are.
- Some of the popular support will automatically diminish.

Also, in my opinion (and I already voiced it here), European troops are the only ones that can be accepted to keep the peace. However, if there is no oposition regarding American presence there, I believe they could present themselves as imparcial partners (although they have been, until now, far from that impartial position). And, other than syssis, they are fully capable with enough proof given in Peacekeeping efforts (other than Israelly ones).

Basicly, the question here is to grant to Palestinians their legitimate selfdetermination rights and to Israellis the right to peacefully co-exist with their negihbours.

Some caveats, though:
- No plan will assure immediate peace and security. It takes much time to disband all the hatred between the two nations.
- Every terrorist act must be faced with the strictest of actions. However, that reaction must derive from the PeaceKeeping forces and never from Israelly ones, unless it is proven that it was done by Israelly citizens and inside the territory of Israel. In no event should Israelli forces be used to retaliate any terrorist action.
- Any slight indication, from any of the parts, of some intention of breaking the agreement must be faced with extreme economic and political sanctions. These sanctions must be stricktly followed by either in the US and Europe (where we find the ones most likelly to brake an economic sanction against Israel) and the Arab States (most likelly to brake and economic santion against a Palestinian State).

This much is difficult, surelly there are some adjustments to be made, but they must be presented in a constructive way.
To just vote against this proposal is not a viable solution, IMO.

Let's hope we can find in this thread some of our pro-Israel activists with some better, non-childish nor extremist, but rather constructive opinions on this proposal. It would be a sign of hope, i guess.

	13-03-2002 22:34									#16
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Eli - I am not sure that you will ever see your proposals being acceptable to the Palestinians. I am a little disapointed in this Might is Right tone. It is precisely that attitude that will lead to a repeat of Lebanon. You should ask yourself if Israeli society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.



Ecowiz Returns - I hope we will find some of those opinions you mentioned at the bottom of your post (I for one would be very interested). I think that you are right about an impartial force in the short to medium term & in not letting ant terror acts go past unanswered by a system that protects everyone.

	13-03-2002 22:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Eli - I am not sure that you will ever see your proposals being acceptable to the Palestinians. I am a little disapointed in this Might is Right tone. It is precisely that attitude that will lead to a repeat of Lebanon. You should ask yourself if Israeli society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

If the alternative is the RoR and giving up on the Temple Mount, yes.

Why dont you ask the same question concerning Palestinians? They suffered much more, you should ask yourself if Palestinian society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

	13-03-2002 22:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Eli If the alternative is the RoR and giving up on the Temple Mount, yes. Why dont you ask the same question concerning Palestinians? They suffered much more, you should ask yourself if Palestinian society can sustain the kind of existence it has had over the past 50 years for another 50 years.

I would be if i knew of any Palestinians posting? Anyway as i see it they don`t have anything left to loose. I could be wrong.

And i was not including the right of return issue I know how much that scares the Israeli`s seeing as it would effectively end the state of Israel. Anyway i thought that they had come close to an agreement on that some go home the others are compensated.

	13-03-2002 23:06									#19
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ABout the saudi initiative:

Israel mostly sees it as a political hoax.

It is there to make Israel uncomfortable. We can't refuse, but we can't agree to anything as ambiguous and without meeting some terms that we have.

Meanwhile it's only their terms. What's the difference between that and submission?

Furthermore we'd have to let Arafat free or we are blamed in sabotaging the peace offer.



Why Saudi arabia put it up?
To continue and befriend the USA and distance itself from terrorist supporters in the eyes of USA.

Remember, most arab terrorists, as most 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. Not only that, Saudia is also a refuge to many terror groups and funds several of them.

It's policies are described by some to be as harsh as the Taliban's, though different and less brutal.

	13-03-2002 23:11									#20
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Btw, your notion that terracts only exist whent here is popular support is wrong.

33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause

25% were dissatisfied with terracts

20% were dissatisfied with Arafat.


They're begining to see the light.


When in the 90's there was supposedly no support for terracts, since Israel made Oslo etc., terracts raged on.

In 2000, after camp david during extensive peace talks with the Barak govt. Pals had no reason to start an intifada of terror. They were in the best situation since 1993.

This is controlled by the leadership = Arafat.

The reason Jordan and Egypt are so soft on Israel, is exactly because they know Arafat is the instigator and uses violence. Notice how they avoid questions regarding putting the blame for the intifada in the first place.

	13-03-2002 23:24									#21
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Siro:

Try to read your statistics like this:

"33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause", therefore 67% thought it wasn't.

"25% were dissatisfied with terracts", therefore 75% weren't.

"20% were dissatisfied with Arafat", therefore 80% are not

Given such strong numbers, what exactly is you definition of popular support?

Anyway, my Apolyton/Middle East survey has now 2 out of the 3 strictest pro-Israel activists presenting nothing of construtive. Let's hope Nathan break unanimity, otherwize we find here a pretty gloomy picture of Isreal's position on this issue ("our way or the highway").

	13-03-2002 23:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Eli It doesnt change the fact that forcebly removing 200,000 Jews from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is ethnic cleansing.

And what do you call the ethnic cleansing of hundred of thousands of palestinians from what is now Israel in 1948? Justice? Or is the etnich cleansing a bad thing only when itīs affecting jews? Jeez...

	13-03-2002 23:49									#23
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Damn Newbies, miss out the banana option
I refuse to vote due to such reasons.

I have another way!

Give every Palestinian (sp?) a load of bananas!

	14-03-2002 00:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X And what do you call the ethnic cleansing of hundred of thousands of palestinians from what is now Israel in 1948? Justice?

We usually call it past

Ok, suppose I tell you that 10,000 jews left israel, on thier own, following the terrorist actions against jews. Is that Ethnic Cleansing? Not according to my view.

In the same way, a big chunck of the 700,000 Arabs that left pre-1948 left on their own, because of fear of hostilities.

quote: Or is the etnich cleansing a bad thing only when itīs affecting jews? Jeez...

Cleansing is always bad.

I am against cleansing of\by both sides, though I firmly believe it will eventually come to that.

	14-03-2002 00:07									#25
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Eli:

You mention "2-3 major settlement blocks" in the West Bank. According to this MAP, would those be the groups of settlements south of Nablus, south of Bethlehem, and jsut above the southren boundary, south of Nablus?

What is the importance of these settlement blocks? Military? Economic? Historical?
Would the Palestinians have a viable state if Israel continued to hold these areas?

	14-03-2002 00:07									#26
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quote: I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots.

And you wonder why there are terrorist attacks

With this policy it won't be long until one of Jerusalem's holy sites gets it, I'm afraid.

	14-03-2002 00:07									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Siro:

First and foremost, I resent your subject line.

quote: Try to read your statistics like this: "33% of pals thought some month ago that the intifada was hurting their cause", therefore 67% thought it wasn't. "25% were dissatisfied with terracts", therefore 75% weren't. "20% were dissatisfied with Arafat", therefore 80% are not Given such strong numbers, what exactly is you definition of popular support?

Well I compare it to previous polls, in which support for Arafat was higher.

Infact, the dissatisfaction with the intifada changed very little in the last few months IIRC.

quote: Anyway, my Apolyton/Middle East survey has now 2 out of the 3 strictest pro-Israel activists presenting nothing of construtive.

This is a survey, not a "put in your own constructive plan here".

Further more, I fail to see how the descriptions strict and activist fit me.

I'm not strict. I'm generally very lax and soft, while I may not always show it.

What is wierder to me is the defenition "activist". I thought it was reserved strictly as a PC term for "terrorist".

In any case, I argue or debate or even get really mad. I don't really "act". I'm a 17 y/o with too little free time and ****ed up priorities

quote: Let's hope Nathan break unanimity, otherwize we find here a pretty gloomy picture of Isreal's position on this issue ("our way or the highway").

I'm simply commenting on the proposal.
No new suggestions. I currently lack suggestions since I believe this will deteriorate into ethnic cleansing in the future.

I was however a great optimist and a big fzzy lefty during the Barak era.

	14-03-2002 00:08									#28
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Back on Track

I voted "No" Because, well, the Saudi's aren't really behind it. If they were, they would have put this forth long ago. As the same guys have been in power for 30 years, it isn't as if they could blame the previous administration for not issuing it.

It seems to me this is just a show for history's shake, "See! We suggested something before the final bloodbath began!".

In any event, they way things are right now, Israel would have to be on crack to reduce their width to 8 miles.

	14-03-2002 00:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I'm aware they want it too, **** them. If you dont like it, come and meet our chariots. And you wonder why there are terrorist attacks With this policy it won't be long until one of Jerusalem's holy sites gets it, I'm afraid.

Infact one of the sites is getting it on a daily basis.

The muslim waqf was building new prayer areas and expanded byeond his lisences and destroyed lots of jewish archeological sites, esp. Solomon's Stables.

Many evidence of whole parts of pillars being thrown out and built over.



And not to mention Joseph's Tomb which was burned to the ground, and then rebuilt... as a mosque!

	14-03-2002 00:25									#30
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quote: As the same guys have been in power for 30 years

Actually no... Crown Prince Abdullah now runs the show, and for all intensive purposes has become the rular of Saudi Arabia.

Siro, cavalier attitudes towards Arabs (like Eli seems to have) will only makes things worse.

I really like this Saudi plan, but Israel will never back it... and then good propaganda tool

Hell, it can be our 'Camp David' propaganda tool.