15-03-2002 18:39									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My mom used to make a great goulash out of Albanian blood.

	15-03-2002 21:29									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, MEMRI carries a lot of articles by Arab writers arguing in favor of peace with Israel and against terrorism. They also carry articles from the Israeli press, including at interview with Aryeh Deri which I think most westerners would find less than flattering. Yes, I would like to see more coverage of the Israeli press, no, I don't think the translations are inaccurate.

I do think though that many people have a tendency to either over or under estimate the signifigance of these articles. Firstly, the relationship between the newspapers and the government in many Arab countries is not clear. On the one hand, in most countries the government censors newspapers to its hearts content, leading many to think that the opinions expressed in the papers are those of the government. On the other hand though, the newspapers are a way to let opponents blow off steam by attacking someone other than the regime. The reason Al-Akhbar Al-Yawm is so visciously anti-Israel is that it's the only issue they're allowed to break lock-step with the Egyptian government on. Mouthing or letting others mouth anti-Israel slogans in the press is often just a cheap government trick to satisfy the Islamists, much like being photographed in a Mosque or encouraging veiling and abstinence from Alcohol. It has the added advantage that it carries appeal for leftists as well as Islamists.

Still though, I think these articles are somewhat signifigant. The level of hatred ties the hands of the governments, even if it is not intended as an expression of government policy. I think it will be very hard to have normalization with Israel when the top song on the Egyptian music charts is entitled "I hate Israel" and when Jordanian unions are devoted to avoiding normalization of relations with Israel.

As for the issue of the Israeli press, I wouldn't argue that there's no incitement, but I think it's kept at a lower level. The Israeli right wing would much rather believe that Palestinians are hostages of a murderous Arafat than that they are as a group bloodthirsty savages, so their efforts are more focused on attacking the PA and Fatah than on ascribing a warlike nature to Islam. Yes, an Israeli Russian newspaper did print a call for, IIRC, the castrating of Palestinian stonethrowers, but they quickly apologized and, again IIRC, sacked the staff responsible for making the decision to print the column.

Also, Israeli incitement isn't as effective. I am very concerned about Jewish terrorism and I think that Israelis need to do more about it, but so far it's only killed a small fraction of those killed by Palestinian terrorism. Which doesn't mean it should be ignored, but which does mean that the latter is more serious. Still, both have to be combated; there is little more dangerous to Israeli society than anti-Arab racism.

	16-03-2002 03:12									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

that's a nice site , Stefu.


Sava:

	16-03-2002 05:49									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

This is insane

Why is my country allied with these freaks????

They should be on the same list as Iraq-Iran-Libya-Syria-Somalia-Egypt-Pakistan-North Korea-China-Etc-Etc-Etc.

	16-03-2002 06:29									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I don't think you understand that this is not a single example of such depiction of jews.

It's systematic.

http://edume.org/reports.html

Just a while ago, it was shown on Israeli TV that a new "political satire" on some Bahranian (or was it Arab Emirates?) TV channel depicted sharon as... a vampire. The main high light was when he was sacrificing a palestinian kid to the devil or something.

http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-191101.html

Now, che and friends will find relations to the current intifada.

However, I would say the events of the intifada are fitted into this pattern, which exist from earlier times.

Palestinian kids ahve been studying about Jews being kids of satan and children of the elders of zion for a long time. And it ain't changing now:

http://www.pmw.org.il/report-patextbooks.html

http://www.pmw.org.il/advisory-110701.html

http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-110202.html


Holocaust Denial:

http://www.pmw.org.il/advisory-031200.html

http://www.pmw.org.il/advisory-190401.html

On the corruption of western capitalist and communist society, from palestinian notebooks:

http://www.pmw.org.il/report-170901.html

Arafat openly accused Jews of stealing palestinian body parts on Al-Jazira. I saw the clip myself.

This is a review of the story in a palestinian newspaper:
http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-241201.html

	16-03-2002 06:35									#36
	Re: Saudi newspaper: Jews are using blood of our children for holiday pastries! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Look, I wish that was only exaggerations about what that Saudi paper published, like it was only modestly anti-Israel and I just used hyperbole to make it look like they're insane, but here we go. Blood libel makes a comeback. How lovely. What next, evil Jews are poisoning our wells?

Typical wartime propaganda in my opinion. I seem to recall an anti-German poster from World War 1 about how the "huns" ate babies.

Edit: And doesn't the Old Testament say that consuming blood is an abomination?

	16-03-2002 07:44									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

"The feared mutaween roam the streets of the conservative kingdom wielding sticks to enforce dress codes and sex segregation and to ensure prayers are performed on time."

I think that that says it all right there... Why would any good create a civilization (if you can call it that) in which people live in fear of religious authorities????

I'm reminded of that quote I heard somewhere.... it is not followers the maker wants, but thinkers... or something like that.

	16-03-2002 07:53									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I'm reminded of that quote I heard somewhere.... it is not followers the maker wants, but thinkers... or something like that.

That is my hope as well.

	17-03-2002 00:39									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest." --- Nietzsche

	17-03-2002 23:36									#40
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I've seen Israeli editorial cartoons that make the Palestinians rats and cockroaches (granted, this was almost ten years ago, and the cartoons were likely older than that). I hear insane Rabbi's calling for the extermination of all adult males. However, most of the propaganda in the Israeli press is the sin of ommission.

By and large, the Israeli press completely ignores the human rights violations, the crimes against humanity, the indignities and the humiliations that the Palestinian people must endure. However, the do read about the reactions to said things, and lacking any reason for the hatred and ferocity of Palestinian attacks, conclude that Palestinians are irrational and hate filled.

Heck, the Israelis rarely even get to hear about troops beating the **** out of Jews who demonstrate on behalf of the Palestinians.

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with depicting Sharon as a vampire feeding on Palestinian children. After all, that's what he does ... politically.

	17-03-2002 23:49									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I've seen Israeli editorial cartoons that make the Palestinians rats and cockroaches (granted, this was almost ten years ago, and the cartoons were likely older than that).

Disgusting, but a cartoon really doesn't have the same effect as an article.

quote: I hear insane Rabbi's calling for the extermination of all adult males.

Haven't heard that. Not saying it couldn't have happened, but where's the source?

quote: However, most of the propaganda in the Israeli press is the sin of ommission. By and large, the Israeli press completely ignores the human rights violations, the crimes against humanity, the indignities and the humiliations that the Palestinian people must endure. However, the do read about the reactions to said things, and lacking any reason for the hatred and ferocity of Palestinian attacks, conclude that Palestinians are irrational and hate filled.

I must disagree. Read Haaretz English edition for a few days; follow Amira Hass's pieces. But even so, I think it's hard to argue that insufficient coverage is the same thing as libel.

quote: Frankly, I see nothing wrong with depicting Sharon as a vampire feeding on Palestinian children. After all, that's what he does ... politically.

Some Israelis would argue that Palestinians are politically rats.

	18-03-2002 00:07									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Amiri Hass is one of the exceptions. Still, it doesn't seem as if she gets the attention that her stories need if Israel wants peace.

	18-03-2002 00:13									#43
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Amiri Hass is one of the exceptions. Still, it doesn't seem as if she gets the attention that her stories need if Israel wants peace.

What you seem to be saying now isn't that the Israeli media aren't reporting it, but that Israelis have seen enough suicide bombings that they just don't care. Gideon Levy and many others are also in agreement with you on these issues, so I think you're claim that the Israeli media are engaged in incitement is quite flawed. I'm somewhat concerned that you don't seem to consider anti-Semitism in the Arab media to be a problem at all.

	18-03-2002 00:42									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If the rest of the media doesn't pick up on her stories, it is easy for them to drop by the wayside. I think if they got pushed more, the Israeli people would realize that both sides in this conflict are in the wrong.

As for anti-Semitism in the Arab press, there isn't really anything I can say. I can condemn it, and I do, but there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it. I suppose we could try and push our government to lean on the Saudis. And maybe President Bush, whose family is deeply in bed with the Saudis will even listen.

But seriously, this is one of those things where it doesn't seem there are any practical steps one can take. Most Arab press is heavily censored by their governments, al-Jazera being the one exception. As long as those governments are at war with Israel, this crap is likley to continue.

	18-03-2002 00:55									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If the rest of the media doesn't pick up on her stories, it is easy for them to drop by the wayside. I think if they got pushed more, the Israeli people would realize that both sides in this conflict are in the wrong.

So it's the duty of the Israeli media to convince people that both sides are wrong by "pushing" stories which favor that opinion, and if a story is reported but not sufficiently "pushed" incitement has occured, on par with blood libel?

quote: As for anti-Semitism in the Arab press, there isn't really anything I can say. I can condemn it, and I do, but there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it. I suppose we could try and push our government to lean on the Saudis. And maybe President Bush, whose family is deeply in bed with the Saudis will even listen.

Saudi Arabia isn't the only Arab country. Journalists could start pressing the issue in their interviews with Arab leaders, since, as you point out, the press in most Arab countries is government run.

	18-03-2002 01:00									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It's hard to see whether this is on a level with the blood libel used by Chrisitans against Jews and whether it is war propaganda of the Milosevic kills 100,000 Kosovo Albanians kind of crap.

The Israeli media has an obligation to get the truth out to the Israeli people so that they can persue policies which are in their best interests. It does not do this, and instead continues to promote the Jews as innocent vicitims whichs to electing mass murderers like Sharon, which continues the same old sh*t.

	18-03-2002 01:28									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: The Israeli media has an obligation to get the truth out to the Israeli people

Which you agree they have done; it's just that they don't "push" the right editorial line to give the stories enough emphasis in your book. I think Israelis are quite well informed about what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza, given that so many of them do reserve military service there or have sons who are stationed there in military units.

quote: so that they can persue policies which are in their best interests. It does not do this, and instead continues to promote the Jews as innocent vicitims whichs to electing mass murderers like Sharon, which continues the same old sh*t.

I know, 2 year old Shelhavet Pass was just pretending to be innocent when she was shot by a Palestinian sniper. We know those dangerous Jewish toddler war criminals.

	18-03-2002 01:34									#48
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you wanna play the innocent victim game, Natan, I'm sure I can name more innocent Palestinians than all the Israelis killed.

	18-03-2002 01:40									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you wanna play the innocent victim game, Natan, I'm sure I can name more innocent Palestinians than all the Israelis killed.

Considering the number of dead on both sides, it might be fairer if you compared the proportions of innocent dead. But the families from both sides might consider it sick.

Edit: Here's an interesting peace group I found.

	18-03-2002 02:00									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you wanna play the innocent victim game, Natan, I'm sure I can name more innocent Palestinians than all the Israelis killed.

And that won't make the innocent Israeli victims any less innocent. As you should know, two rights don't make a wrong. Innocent people who are murdered are innocent victims and should be portrayed as such.

	18-03-2002 03:56									#51
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Im not exactly saying anything to inctite anybody. So what EXACTLY is the fruit/Organ's are they talking about?

Ever had one of these pastries? Im wondering what about it makes them think this.

	18-03-2002 04:00									#52
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Absurd drivel. Israelis don't use the blood for pastries.


Where do you think ketchup comes from?


I apologize in advance to anyone who'se offended by this, but nonsense like this deserves nonsense in response.

	18-03-2002 05:48									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ever had one of these pastries? Im wondering what about it makes them think this.

I eat them every year. They're cookie dough rolled up sort of into the shape of those revolutionary war hats with the brim folded in three, if you know what I mean. The traditional filling is poppyseed, but nowadays a variety of fruit flavors exist; strawberry, lemon, apricot, prune, and probably some more exotic ones.

	18-03-2002 07:22									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

o/~ Dradel, dradel, dradel, I made you out of clay . . . o/~

Purim is my favorite Jewish holiday, though I really like gvelte fish at Passover, too.

	18-03-2002 08:04									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara o/~ Dradel, dradel, dradel, I made you out of clay . . . o/~

Hag Sameach, Reb Yid!

quote: Purim is my favorite Jewish holiday

Purim's great fun though, and a natural favorite for Jewish commies, what with the charity, the giving of gifts, and what not. For me, any holiday where I eat a meal at the Habad house is my favorite.

quote: though I really like gvelte fish at Passover, too.

Most Jews I know (well, the religious ones) eat gefilte fish every Saturday afternoon at lunch along with their Cholent.

	20-03-2002 03:11									#56
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Amiri Hass is one of the exceptions. Still, it doesn't seem as if she gets the attention that her stories need if Israel wants peace.

I talked to a freind of mine a whiel ago that told me an interesting fact.

I appears, Amira Hass is lying alot. She often writes inaccuracies and often misleads the public, and constantly pays alot of money in libel suits.

She doesnt' care though, as she gets money from the EU, like most of Israeli extreme-lefties.

	20-03-2002 03:21									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's hard to see whether this is on a level with the blood libel used by Chrisitans against Jews and whether it is war propaganda of the Milosevic kills 100,000 Kosovo Albanians kind of crap.

It's both together.

As you may very well know the arabs, and esp. the most influencive palestinian leaders were very good friends with the Nazis during WWII.
Not only that, but they also brought the Nazi's propoganda home.

If you'd be so kind as to follow the links I posted earlier, you'd see how the protocols of zion are still the hot word in Israel, according to arab media.

Not to mention we set up 9/11 and not brave hero bin-laden.

quote: The Israeli media has an obligation to get the truth out to the Israeli people so that they can persue policies which are in their best interests.

There you run into a problem, since while there is one truth, there are so many different ways to approach it and tackle it.

Not to mention a great deal of many different interests.

Do you always act upon the abosulte truth and not according to your personal interests?

You are infact criticizing the Israeli press for not being in line with your interests and understanding.

quote: It does not do this, and instead continues to promote the Jews as innocent vicitims whichs to electing mass murderers like Sharon, which continues the same old sh*t.

oy, here we go with sharon again.
Sharon was no only not convicted, but also endited from the label mass-murderor. That's just more propoganda talking than you.

Furthermore, those who get killed on bus stops and clubs were, are and always will be innocent victims.

Those who target innocent people, are not innocent.

quote: Most Jews I know (well, the religious ones) eat gefilte fish every Saturday afternoon at lunch along with their Cholent.

That's the traditional ashkenazi jews.

	20-03-2002 03:29									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh my god........

	20-03-2002 03:31									#59
	Got spare money?

Amira Hess...

Once in a meeting between Israeli journalists and the Palestinian leadership, including Arafat, in some Pal city one of the Palestinians said something along the lines of "for true peace this settlement needs to be removed [pointing on some small isolated settlement] and this one is [pointing on another small settlement] blocks the road between this and that cities".
Amira Hess, shocked : "What about Maale Edumim[a very large settlement nearby]?"
Yasser Arafat : "Is she one of yours or one of ours?"

	20-03-2002 03:53									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, Amira Hass is an Israeli in the way that Ayoob Kara and Madhat Yusuf are Palestinians. Being of a certain ethnicity doesn't guarentee that you have a specific view on the conflict, but the point is that Haaretz does print Hass's columns.