15-03-2002 23:08									#1
	Ideas for creating the Modern Age? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I would really like to hear some ideas about what can we do to the Modern Age problem?

The United Nations come early in the Modern Age, the wonder itself is finished in no more than 20 turns, and you can usually get it, if you've been nice to the world.

Otherwise, the Spaceship. For me, SS construction is fairly simple. I build Apollo, and assign my best city to the SS Engine. I assign the other top production cities to other parts. I cease building anything other in top productive cities, unless it's a power plant, and reassign to SS parts. I get the Laser, build the Party Longue, and run for Synthetic Fibers. By the time I get Fibers, all the other parts are complete, so I assign the remaining components to most productive cities, again. In at most 5 turns after I get Synthethic Fibers, I get the victory.

I've had a nice space race with another civ, once I only barely won it, and that certainly spiced up the ending.

As a consequence of the Modern Age as it is, I've never used Modern Armor. I've built it once, to see what it looks like, but the next turn got my SpaceShip launched. Also, I've only conducted Precision Strikes once, with F-15, I just never get Stealth. Stealth aircraft, AEGIS Cruiser, Modern Armor are the units I never actually used, just too late.

So, what are your ideas on actually creating a Modern Age? Obviously, this would slightly reduce the tedium.

One of the ideas is, BTW, the improvement of UN - see this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=44682 . However, that's not quite enough, it just makes the Diplomatic Victory tougher and adds a little bit to do late in the game.

I love Civ 3, though!

	15-03-2002 23:33									#2
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Try raising Space Ship components price 2.5 times.
That way you can build SS and discover most of techs.

prices: 400, 800, 1600

And lot more new startegies:
-Manuf. Plant before building 1600 shields SS component?
-Or nuke to distrupt enemy SS?
-Maybe Off. platform?
-Or war to take down enemy SS?



In normal games, I end up researching Laser and winnning game one turn later.

As for Diplo, I don't know, I usually ignore that victory (disable or build UN but not vote).

	16-03-2002 00:30									#3
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Hmm...

Yeah, SS parts should be more expensive, but there also needs to be more tech.

You asked for it...

Units:

1) Change "destroyer" to "cruiser" increase movement (map dependant if possible)
2) Create "destroyer" - lower a/d, can see subs, fast
3) Only Nuc. subs should be able to "see" other subs (I'm assuming the first subs are WWI/WWII vintage). They need to be faster than normal subs too. Can carry cruise missles, capacity upped to 2.
4) Remove stealth fighter - it's pointless.
5) Add a strong figherbomber - low attack, medium defense, medium bombard (if I understand the air combat system right, that is. What I want is a fighterbomber which will hurt ground units in the open, and be capable of defending itself from interception fairly well.)
6) Increase shield cost of Modern Armor and Mech Infantry
7) If possible, allow SAM's to engage any aircraft that enters the city radius.
8) Create "SuperCarrier" - Carries up to 8 air units, higher movement. Prereq - Nuclear Power. Bombers should not be able to land on carriers, super or no. Hence, a fighterbomber becomes useful.
9) Aegis cruiser (prereq. now Guided Missles) can carry up to 4 cruise missles.


Tech:

"Guided Missles" - from Rocketry. Allows upgrades to Battleships, Destroyers, Cruisers. Cruise missle moved here, range increased. SAM moved here.
"Satellites" should allow a recon mission anywhere in the world once per turn.
Make "Synthetic Fibers" a pre-requisite for at least some SS parts.
Same with Miniaturization
Move "smart weapons" - preq. "guided missles" and "satellites"

Wonders:

Remove "Longevity"
Increase Cure for Cancer to 2 happy people/city, double or triple shield cost, also include the growth provided by "Longevity." Heh.
UN needs serious work... see the thread Solver mentioned.

There's more... but I need to really think about it. But I don't know if I really want to, at least until the editor is up to snuff.

-Arrian

	16-03-2002 01:55									#4
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i know this doesnt exactly solve the problem of never fully utililizng the modern age, but...

after 20-some games ending one or two techs into the modern age and just after getting to the cool units in the game (infantry, marines, tanks, battleships, etc) without ever getting to really use them, i made a change in the editor for the game i'm currently playing- for the ancient and medieval eras i changed the max tech time to 5 turns, and then in the industrial era i changed it to 10 turns. When i reached the modern era i changed it to a minimum of 40 turns/tech to allow for plenty of time to use late industrial units and to slowly phase in modern units. had to disable spaceship and un victory conditions. so far the results have been great- i finally get to play with new units, without the world having been completely overrun with AI cities and slowing down the time between turns.

	16-03-2002 02:03									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've been tinkering with the modern tech tree (see my Space Race mod in the files forum ...) so that it (1) makes more sense (robotics comes earlier while it still might be useful for instance), (2) the SS components are far more expensive and come at the end of the tech tree. Check it out (i'll probably post my latest update soon).

Not much to be done about diplomatic victory, since that is hardcoded. I suggest Firaxis make it look more like MOO2's election (i.e. based on relative populations and a 2/3 majority as opposed to as it stands now). But we'll just have to wait on that.

	16-03-2002 16:20									#6
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Good ideas on making the Modern Age. None fully solves utilzing all the moden age stuff, but what the heck. I just finished my last game, and will start the next one with spaceship more costly, to discover all the techs. And I'll probably not vote on the UN.

Yeah, here's the crux of the matter. SS can be solved, while the easy Diplomatic victory is still a problem. You can get it easy, if enabled, and the best solution to that still is another UN model, like the one I propose in the thread I refer to in the first post.

The two things together could be the right thing.

	16-03-2002 17:49									#7
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To me the main problem is that the Space Ship simply starts too soon. The cost of the parts is not really a problem. I think they are mostly OK. There simply needs to be more tech between the Apollo Program and the start of buiding a ship capable of traveling to another star.

We have allmost all of the modern military tech right now in the real world and we aren't even able to go the Mars yet much less Alpha Centauri. The expense is enormous for a Mars trip.

There isn't even a Space Station tech in the game and we aren't likely to be able to make a direct to Mars shot like was done in the Apollo program and in the Space Race victory movie in decades maybe a bit before 2050 but not much. Mars is only a year away in a minimum energy transfer orbit. The Centauri system is 4.5 light years away. Thats orders of magnitude more difficult.

Chemical rockets are hopeless for interstellar travel. An ion drive or a laser drive will be needed unless someone finds a new method and there is nothing in the games tech tree that even hints at those two much less some sort of Unobtainium Drive.

Laser for a party lounge. Really. It smells like it was a place holder tech to me.

I think an assembly in orbit tech is thing that really should be added. Fusion would be a good item as well. The end in 2050 is unrealistic at best. We will be lucky to get to Mars by then. Maybe if nano-tech comes along soon it will possible earlier.

I have used Modern Armour but it doesn't get used all the time. Only if a war is going on at the time of or soon after the Apollo program. A war can really slow things up. Especially if the game is close.

The UN is not a sure thing for many players. It isn't for me anyway. I disable it. I don't think its handled right anyway. If the losers in the vote had the option to go to war with those that voted against them then I would enable it again. The grapes were sour.

I like the game but I really think they didn't finish it. Especially the Modern era.

I think I can stop rambling now. I had an idea.

If your just looking for a quick fix there may not be a need for new tech. Rearanging things may do the job.

Ecology ->Synthetic->Stealth seems OK allready

Rockety ->Space Flight but then its too fast as is.

Fission-> Nuclear Power should be needed for the SS engine not space flight. Chemical rockets are really a silly idea for it.

Computers->Miniturization->Genetics in line not genetics as a side issue

Robitics and Genetics should both be needed for Life Support.

Robotics could come before Genetics. Robotic machines have been used in the human genome project anyway.

Docking with space flight is OK but the other two should come later. The cockpit and engines should follow superconducters. I am thinking of high temperature superconductors not ones in liquid helium.

Stassis Chamber is definitly out of place.

Sattelites for the thrusters is OK if we are talking about the boosters for getting it off the earth. Not for the main star drive.

Basicaly I think the more advanced components should come after

Robotics

Smart Weapons

Stealth

Genetics

that should do it.

Require people to get Genetics and Robotics for Life Support

Maybe integrated Defense could be left for after the last Space Ship tech but nothing else should come after unlike how it is now.

Thats a start of a way I think. Kinda rough.

	16-03-2002 17:58									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

In real life, we're so backwards space-wise because it costs a lot. IT technologies are top of the mark, we're up with that, but space is really really bad, as it costs. Just imagine the cost of sending a spaceship to Mars, and making the planet habitable. Back in 1998 (1999?), I read that there is all the tech needed to make Mars habitable by Earth humans - raising temperature, melting Ice Caps for water, making clouds, etc. However, the cost is so huge that it isn't likely anyone is going to do that.

Thus far, there's living room for all the people right here on Earth. When we run out of space here, Mars colonies might be needed. But right now, noone really needs to live on Mars.

	16-03-2002 19:17									#9
	Support Apolyton

you could also make it so that the spaceship victory requires several of each part.

	16-03-2002 22:05									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

or disable all victories save conquest and depending on how you play end at 2050 or whenever you kill off the last guy

	16-03-2002 22:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have never been too concerned with all the changes that need to be made in the modern era. This is mostly because I hate micromanging. However, the workers under automation do a great job now thanks to 1.17f. I actually enjoy playing the modern era now and look forward to some good scenerios.

	17-03-2002 07:11									#12
	Small note Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

1) Change "destroyer" to "cruiser" increase movement (map dependant if possible)
2) Create "destroyer" - lower a/d, can see subs, fast
3) Only Nuc. subs should be able to "see" other subs (I'm assuming the first subs are WWI/WWII vintage). They need to be faster than normal subs too. Can carry cruise missles, capacity upped to 2.
4) Remove stealth fighter - it's pointless.
5) Add a strong figherbomber - low attack, medium defense, medium bombard (if I understand the air combat system right, that is. What I want is a fighterbomber which will hurt ground units in the open, and be capable of defending itself from interception fairly well.)
6) Increase shield cost of Modern Armor and Mech Infantry
7) If possible, allow SAM's to engage any aircraft that enters the city radius.
8) Create "SuperCarrier" - Carries up to 8 air units, higher movement. Prereq - Nuclear Power. Bombers should not be able to land on carriers, super or no. Hence, a fighterbomber becomes useful.
9) Aegis cruiser (prereq. now Guided Missles) can carry up to 4 cruise missles.


Tech:

"Guided Missles" - from Rocketry. Allows upgrades to Battleships, Destroyers, Cruisers. Cruise missle moved here, range increased. SAM moved here.
"Satellites" should allow a recon mission anywhere in the world once per turn.
Make "Synthetic Fibers" a pre-requisite for at least some SS parts.
Same with Miniaturization
Move "smart weapons" - preq. "guided missles" and "satellites"

Wonders:

Remove "Longevity"
Increase Cure for Cancer to 2 happy people/city, double or triple shield cost, also include the growth provided by "Longevity." Heh.
UN needs serious work... see the thread Solver mentioned.

-Arrian [/QUOTE]

I like these suggestions very much. I would add:

Restricting Monitor class ship to shallow coastal seas (historical), and I would enhance even more the nuclear sub. Its raw fire power and logistical independence make it simply awsome. Some specialized sub hunting ships and aircraft (or an ASW mission).

How do you propose to keep galleys and wooden frigates from harming (let alone killing) monitors, battle ships and subs?


Add: Soylent Green, which reduces the food requirements for cities which then allows them to expand vastly. The 'Green' ability is really low tech, simply requireing the will and need to do it. The only negative I can think of is if Charton Heston lets the 'cat out of the bag', that SG is people, which reduces happiness somewhat.

	17-03-2002 07:26									#13
	Modern age Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To expand the Modern age experience, the turn increments should be 'Months', not 'Years'.

I mean, I can trave from coast to coast in the US in a few days. The US deployed to Afganistan in a month. But in CIV III a cruse missle is barely faster than a mounted knight.

	17-03-2002 11:58									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Announcing:

The Space Race Mod v3.0

I have completely redone the modern tech tree (with a nifty science advisor screen to boot!). Spaceship components are more expensive, and delegated to the final techs in the game (many of which I added). I also improved modern aircraft, cruise missles, marines, and naval units (esp. the Aegis Cruiser).

If you want a modern age that works (or at least works better) click on the above link.

Last edited by The Templar on 17-03-2002 at 23:44

	17-03-2002 17:41									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thanks Templar, I'll download that.

Alas, there's no function of merging mods. I play with some own modifications, and don't want to lose them, I guess I'll need to merge them manually somehow. Anyone?

	17-03-2002 23:42									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Solver Thanks Templar, I'll download that. Alas, there's no function of merging mods. I play with some own modifications, and don't want to lose them, I guess I'll need to merge them manually somehow. Anyone?

I really miss the mix and match you could do with mods in the CTP series. With civ3, you have to mix mods by hand so to speak.