16-03-2002 16:55									#1
	Black Children Not As Bright? Ah, Must Be Because The Teachers Are Racist! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Black children are being treated unfairly in schools, with higher levels of expulsion and poor exam grades, a special conference in London is being told. The event, aimed at finding ways to improve the performance of black pupils, is being organised and chaired by Labour MP Diane Abbott. As it got underway on Saturday, she said the "massive turnout" showed how concerned black parents were at the way schools were "failing" their children. There are concerns that children from certain ethnic groups are falling behind in the transition from primary to secondary education.

Why must every study that shows one racial group (usually a minority) to be faring worse than another be shrouded in accusations of racism?

Perhaps it's accusations like that that keep black children from faring as well - they know if they fail they can always fling **** at their past teachers and blame them racist.

Let's not give them that excuse - they aren't being treated unfairly. Exam grades accurately reflect educational progress, and questionable expulsions can be appealed against.

This article is a disgrace.

	16-03-2002 16:57									#2
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Oops...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/ed...000/1875494.stm

	16-03-2002 19:09									#3
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It's an objective piece of journalism on an MP's opinions and a conference. How does that constitute a disgrace?

	16-03-2002 19:35									#4
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It's been shown that black children enter school as the highest acheivers, and leave as the lowest.

	16-03-2002 20:29									#5
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Conversely, why is that any time even suggests any aspect of racism, they must be making it up?

	16-03-2002 20:34									#6
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Why is it that when parents, educators and politicians try to find solutions for the problems faced by black students, there's always a white person *****ing and whining that "they're just crying wolf." And the white person's solution is to tell them to shut up.

Yeah, just ignore the problem and it will go away.

(And no offence to white people who do not agree with Boddington's views).

	16-03-2002 20:41									#7
	White people not as bright? Ah, Boddington's must be lowering the average! Enter the AD-FREE zone

It must be nice to be able to pretend that prejudice doesn't exist in the world.

	17-03-2002 00:24									#8
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Boddington's -- just because white teachers neglect to teach African-descent students enough of their ethnic history, does mean that all of those teachers should be accused as being racist, as you claim.

But it is wrong when any teacher neglects to teach African-descent students their anestral, ethnic history. That is part of the problem and the reason why there is a higher apathy or lack of interest in all school courses for many African-descent students.

Don't you understand how past discrimination, and cruelty can affect today's society of that race/ethnic group? And even today, discrimination continues in spite of the legislation against it.

	17-03-2002 01:03									#9
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It is reasonable to find out exactly what the problem is. From the article it seem clear that isn't known, but I am aware that the attitude of the media is to imply unfair treatment for black pupils. No evidence is presented along with the implications though.

Until such time that the evidence is available I think it would be reasonable not to start accusing. It is perfectly possible that the problem is not primarily with the teaching side of the equation at all. Education is a two way street, and it seems more likely that one peer group does not find the enthusiasm to learn, than another, who deliberately choose to take up teaching as a profession, lost the enthusiasm to teach.

As for the teaching of history. If you live in Britain, then it is British culture, British history, that you are taught. That's part of the deal of being here, of being a British citizen. You wish to learn about other foreign cultures, then good for you, but you take it up in your own time.

	17-03-2002 02:53									#10
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I can see where he's coming from. I don't see how the school should be changed to take care of it, though. Any suggestions?

Note: It's also a trend in the USA. Black grades are lowering while white grades hover/rise.

	17-03-2002 02:54									#11
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I have to agree with Gary (and Boddies). Just because a group is achieving less doesn't mean that they are being prejudiced against. By that logic, Asian students are being favored in the classrooms, because teachers like Asians.

	17-03-2002 05:07									#12
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"But it is wrong when any teacher neglects to teach African-descent students their anestral, ethnic history"

I have not been taught Irish history- in fact we have learned more about the history of Africa then the history of Ireland, but I still take an interest in history we learn. We don't teach Asians their ethnic history too well, but they take an interest. And besides, your theory can only explain one subject- history- doesn't come close to explaining math or science.

	17-03-2002 05:54									#13
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When history courses neglect or teach distorted images of African history to African-descent students, it could possibily contribute to the development of apathy in other courses that are not even related to those history courses.

Other factors that contribute to lower academic achievement among many (not all) black students:

1) segregation -- legislation has not effectively ended school segregation

2) teachers calling on white students more than black students when asking students questions

3) lack of relevant history for African-descent students (mentioned above)

4) malnutrition -- more black students than white students live in lower class families

	17-03-2002 05:54									#14
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I'd rather look at a few other factors also.

Black children are more likely to have a single parent.

Black children are more likely to have a parent that is unable to adaquately help the student at home once the child has passed 6th grade.

Black children are more likely to have inadaquate nourishment at home.

Etc.

A lot of white children in the south suffer from the same things.

It's not that they're black that causes the problem, but the related characteristics.

Every angle has to be investigated, not just the automatic racial bias claims.

RAH

	17-03-2002 06:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I have to agree with Gary (and Boddies). Just because a group is achieving less doesn't mean that they are being prejudiced against. By that logic, Asian students are being favored in the classrooms, because teachers like Asians.

*sigh*If only this were true....*sigh* (just joking)

	17-03-2002 06:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui By that logic, Asian students are being favored in the classrooms, because teachers like Asians.

It's true. Ask Ramo

Seriously, some teachers show a preference towards pupils who do well in school and who behave themselves, regardless whether they are geeks or not.

Teachers are humans too, so they share the same fallibilities with other humans.

	17-03-2002 06:47									#17
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UR - I can agree that teachers generally treat good pupils who usually get good grades and behave well better. It's only natural because we're programmed to make conclusions about people. I admit it's a problem, but also an advantage, if you're a good student and take a one time dive - your teacher doesn't suddenly decide you're a duffus.

However, I strongly disagree that teachers generally are racist. Even if some are, though shouldn't affect a whole school system, and I don't accept allegations that a whole school system is racist.

I have to agree with Boddington, Gary, rah and Imran. rah suggested several directions which should be explored as the cause.

I don't think there are any significant genetical reasons for the difference but cultural ones. For instance, I can tell you that my parents have always pushed me to excellancy, therefore I learn alot better than many who may infact be smarter than me, but don't have that culture of excellancy.

	17-03-2002 12:38									#18
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Malnutrition in lower class families takes its toll on black students as well as white students.

However, black students also suffer from the demoralizing effect of segregation and other forms of discrimination and neglect that poor white students do not suffer from.

I cannot understand how Boddington's and some others can ignore these exponential effects on many black students.

	18-03-2002 04:46									#19
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Why didn't anybody ever complain about the fact that black runners dominate all 100 m world championships?
Ok, here it is a clearly measurable number.

In education, there are several problems
- Social disadvantages (You've discussed already a lot.)
- As in physical areas, there can be also differences in intellectual dispositions. Due to the big lies called "political correctness" these differences "must not" exist, but they can be there.
- Intelligence is dependent on culture. The most intelligent people of New York will be probably really stupid (and not only in what they lack to know but also in their unability to learn) in a jungle village -- and vice versa. The people of Europe have formed (most of) the culture which exists in the Europe of today, and so it is only natural that they cope best with this culture.

What I want to warn against is to look at the pure numbers. By simply prescribing some sort of quota you will never get the best persons at the right places (and I fear that even within the oppressed minority this will put the loudest and not the best at the best positions...). In Germany (where is no real problem with black people due to a severe lack of such) I sometimes get the impression that the real discrimination tends to turn against healthy heterosexual men between 25 and 50, simply because all others get all sorts of support.
So, please look about the people what they can do and not to the colour of their skin or the fraction of people with the same colour of skin working in the same area. This is fruitless and always discriminates (which originally meant "to distinguish" and not "to suppress") someone.

	18-03-2002 05:05									#20
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ah... malnutrition is not an issue... there's free or reduced price lunch programs...

	18-03-2002 07:10									#21
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"When history courses neglect or teach distorted images of African history to African-descent students,"

Irish history has been pretty neglected, so why I am not apathetic?

But in any case, your argument is totally false. African-American history is taught a great deal, they make a big deal on Black history and the civil rights movement. Your argument is completely not based in reality.

"1) segregation -- legislation has not effectively ended school segregation

2) teachers calling on white students more than black students when asking students questions

3) lack of relevant history for African-descent students (mentioned above)

4) malnutrition -- more black students than white students live in lower class families"

1) Even in schools with a strong mix of students, African American studens do worse on average.

2) Do you have any source to back that up? I haven't seen that at all.

3) Dealt with above

4) A scapegoat, the great majority of Americans get enough to eat, and for the poorest students free breakfast and lunch is provided.

"Seriously, some teachers show a preference towards pupils who do well in school and who behave themselves, regardless whether they are geeks or not. "

True, and from my observations at least black students are often the ones who are the class troublemakers.

	18-03-2002 07:50									#22
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the reasons black students do worse is primarily culture and socialogically related

the culture that glorifies gangsters, rappers, and the like does not put up education as a good thing

also many blacks are from poorer families

I really put a large part of the blame on popular black culture

(or course in some areas racism still is a factor, however when the racism seems to be correct (becuase the black students are doing worse) you will not be able to get rid of it. Once black students scores start rising and they are perceived to be doing better the racism will drop away (and this is the only way to truly get rid of racism). therefore every effort needs to be made to encourage black culture to put an emphasis on education. blaming the system and complaining will never fix anything)

Jon Miller

	18-03-2002 07:54									#23
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quote: - As in physical areas, there can be also differences in intellectual dispositions. Due to the big lies called "political correctness" these differences "must not" exist, but they can be there.

I'd watch it, that is a VERY dangerous thing to say on a board where Lefties exist

In England (and probably US too) it is simply not allowed to have such views, because to think that you are in some (non physical) way different to another group of people is classed as racist.

Basically , there are certain ideas which are considered so radical and destructive to the PC natured government, that to even acknowledge these ideas, you will be labelled a Racist,sexist,bigot or in some other way Demonised, your free right to express these beliefs will be supressed at every oppertunity and your existance will censored in all forms of media, except in Mockery.

	18-03-2002 08:00									#24
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I'm sure you all know the brown eye/blue eye experiment.

A class in Iowa was divided into two groups, those with blue eyes, and everyone else. On one day, the brown eyed students got special privleges and the blue eyed students were discriminated against. On that day, the brown eyed students scored better than average, and the blue eyed students scored worse than average. The next day, the roles were reversed, and so were the results. The day after, things went back to normal, and the overall grades improved. This was about 30 years ago, and former students still say it was one of the most important events in their lives.

So, what makes people feel like thy are in the superior or inferior group. Lots of things. The family you gro up with, the neighborhood you grow up in, whether or not you have to spend a few hours on a bus to go to a better school with richer children, your relationship to authority figures in your community, etc. On average, Black children tend to be more disadvataged in those areas, though not an insignificant number of white students do also.

The difference is, poor whites are invisible in our society, while poor Blacks can tap into a movement against racism. Because racism affects Black people of all classes, poor Black people have existing movements to express their rage about their class based discrimination, and because poor whites are invisible, it appears to be racial discrimination against Black people. Which is not to say that every thing that poor Black people suffer is on account of class, because poor Black people tend to be poorer than poor whites.

Historically, it is the cross-racial class based movements which have engendered the strongest reactions from society. In the US, the Populist movement united poor Blacks and poor whites and nearly brought democracy to the American South seventy years earlier. The response by the Southern "aristocracy" was the grandfather clause (if your grandfather couldn't vote, you an't either), which disenfranchised both poor whites and Blacks. Martin Luther King was assassinated when he began to move towards a class based anti-poverty movement. He was killed the day before he was to lead a strike. And so on.

edit: added definition of original grandfather clause.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 18-03-2002 at 08:22

	18-03-2002 08:07									#25
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very good chegitz guevara

much better than I said it

Jon Miller

	18-03-2002 08:22									#26
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Look at the NBA. 95% Black, give or take. Or look at R&B music. Also 95% Black. Maybe the "problem" is that the black race's strengths aren't in this "study." Maybe this "study" intentionally omitted these categories.

I'm gonna do a "study". I'm going to count the numbers of whites and blacks on various teams in the NBA. Obviously the coaches are racist anti-whites. .

I think American society lets Blacks play the victim a bit too much.

Example:

My sister had a Black anti-semite teacher. Whenever a principal tried to get rid of her, she accused the principal of racism, and got moved to a different public school. But they never could get rid of her because she had tenure. She ruined the reputations of half the white principals in the Maryland Public School system.

They gave her a Black principaled school after my sister's school. She accused the principal of harassment when he tried to get rid of her.

Then they gave her a Black woman principal. Poetic justice is so sweet.

	18-03-2002 08:26									#27
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I think you need a clue.

	18-03-2002 08:30									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think you need a clue.

I think you need a plastic surgeon

	18-03-2002 08:40									#29
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Really? On what basis?

	18-03-2002 09:32									#30
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Hey FD, here's an idea...

Maybe, just throwing out crazy ideas here, blacks are more successful in athletics because that's where our society accepts them? You know, you sure can't get a good education in the 'hood, but you can damn sure shoot the rock if you want to.

But hey, what do I know. After all, you are a teenager with all the answers.