19-03-2002 07:38									#1
	How many Civs do you predict will be in the official XP and which civs will they be? Got spare money?

Here's the question I pose to the Apolyton community, how many new civilizations do you think will appear in a new expansion pack, and which civilizations do you predict that they will be?

Here's my educated guess:
I predict 8 new civs, since it would bring the number up to a nice even 24, and 8 is half of the number of civs that appeared in the original game, so it is a nice number in that regard as well.

The eight civs will be
1. Spanish (due to appearing in Civ 2)
2. Mongols (due to appearing in Civ 2)
3. Celts (due to appearing in Civ 2, even though they seemed like a trivial Civ to include, IMHO)
4. Carthage/Phoenecia (due to appearing in Civ 2)
5. Vikings (due to appearing in Civ 2)
6. Arabs (due to appearing in Civ 2 text files)
7. Incans (due to appearing in Civ 2 text files)
8. Turks/Mayans/Portugese/Hebrews/Dutch

The last spot is a tough call. I think all four civs have a feasible chance of being in the game.
Turks-Extremely important, but could be considered to be too similar to the arabs.
Mayans- A very unique, distinct civ, but could be left out because of the Inca already being included.
Portugese-Certainly very prominent throughout history, but could be left out, for better or worse, due to Spain's inclusion
Hebrews- Very unique, but not as large an impact on history as some of the others mentioned.
Dutch-A great European Civ, but the fact that it's another European civ could be held against it.

I would wager that the last civ is either the Turks or Hebrews. The Turks due to their importance in history and the Hebrews due to their uniqueness and marketability (imagine an animated King David!).

	19-03-2002 07:42									#2
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Also, to my thesis' credit, the Alien Crossfire expansion included 7 new factions, a number very close to my predicted 8.

	19-03-2002 07:57									#3
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I'd like to see the Hebrews as a civilization in the expansion pack. I agree with the rest of your choices. I think they would all make sense to be included in the expansion pack.

	19-03-2002 08:11									#4
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I'll agree with your number being 8.

What are the cultural groups again? European. Asian. Americas. African/AncientMidEast? If 8, I'd say 2 for each group.

European:
Spanish. UU Conquistador/Crusader
Viking. UU Berserker

Asian:
Mongols. UU HorseArcher
Siam. UU No clue

Ancient:
Phoenecians. UU No clue
Hebrew. UU Slinger

Americas:
Apache. UU No clue
Mayan. UU No clue
Canadian. UU Hoser

Oh. Was that 9? Oh well. 8 of the 9 will make it I'm sure.

Take off, eh!

	19-03-2002 08:39									#5
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I don't know. But I do know this. They will like bananas.

	19-03-2002 08:44									#6
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hmm.. i think there will be 8 new 1's also
and the previous pic's make sense to me..
my predictions-
1) Spanish, very important, in civ2
2) Vikings, civ 2
3) Carthagians, civ 2
4) Mongols, civ 2
5) Turks, quite important
6) Celts, civ 2
last 2 r hard for me to decide
7) i) Canadians.. but they r close to iroquois and americans.. really close (on maps) ii) Arabs, i might bet on this
8) i) Australians, kinda doubt it ii) Dutch, i think this one shuld be in.

many others could be 7 or 8.. and i am prolly missin some.. oh well..

thats wut i think

	19-03-2002 09:13									#7
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I think Firaxis should have one or two blank "template" civs instead. This way, we can add our own civ to the game, without having to overwrite anyother civ, not to mention having to live with that's face (i know you can edit it, but I don't feel like it)

	19-03-2002 15:37									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I think Firaxis should have one or two blank "template" civs instead. This way, we can add our own civ to the game, without having to overwrite anyother civ, not to mention having to live with that's face (i know you can edit it, but I don't feel like it)

"template" civs?

I think that it would be a better idea to simply have an editor that you can use to create your own civs with their own units and leader portraits. The number of civs you can create should then be limitless, however in game, only 16 should be accessible (maybe that limit should be bumped up on the larger maps). The 'template', however would be a good starting point in creating your civ leaders. But then there'd only need to be one which will come up as soon as the editor opens, or you select New from the file menu.

Also, you should be able to create new cultural groups so that your custom civs fit in somewhere outside of European, Mediterranean, Middle-Eastern and American cultural groups (eg. If I wanted to create Australian and Aboriginal civilizations, I could have an "Australian" cultural group created). This ability would also make fantasy mods much easier to come up with, as you could have a cultural group for each race (separate groups for human, elvish, orc/goblin and undead kingdoms, etc.)

	19-03-2002 18:39									#9
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I would like to see the:

Mongols
Turks
and Hungarions

added in a exspansion pack. But I would also like to another French leader like Napoleon

	19-03-2002 18:56									#10
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Well I think you may well be right but I hope not. Your justification for these civ's appearing in Civ2 is probably in line with Firaxis plans (i.e. rehash some old ideas). Personally I would rather see a series of themed expansions that include more than a few new civ's. What about Civ III : Imperialism? It could include some of the guys on your list like Spain, Apache, and Incans, but I really hope they give us new features that complement the existing game. How about the possibility of part of your Civ rebelling ( maybe one of the new civ's could then be a generic rebelious civ that takes it's name from the civ it broke away from?) perhaps with the introduction of a "rebellious sentiment" in each city that replaces the "corruption increasing with distance from capital" model for controlling the expansion of empires? Perhaps this would encourage the use of colonies to reach essential resources (would any empire throw around settlers as they do now if it increases the risk of a large number of their cities rebelling to form a new civ?). Why not design the new UU's to take advantage of the redisigned game.

So I hope for only a few new civ's, around 4 say, that are all in some way related.

And what do you mean the Celts where unimportant? Who do you think those Roman legions did all that fighting against?

	20-03-2002 07:09									#11
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good thoughts Mikel! i would love to see something like that, or perhaps religion implemented. For example, there would be 5 or 6 religons you could choose from, and each one would have different properties, like the different governments.

	20-03-2002 07:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal "template" civs? I think that it would be a better idea to simply have an editor that you can use to create your own civs with their own units and leader portraits. The number of civs you can create should then be limitless, however in game, only 16 should be accessible (maybe that limit should be bumped up on the larger maps). The 'template', however would be a good starting point in creating your civ leaders. But then there'd only need to be one which will come up as soon as the editor opens, or you select New from the file menu. Also, you should be able to create new cultural groups so that your custom civs fit in somewhere outside of European, Mediterranean, Middle-Eastern and American cultural groups (eg. If I wanted to create Australian and Aboriginal civilizations, I could have an "Australian" cultural group created). This ability would also make fantasy mods much easier to come up with, as you could have a cultural group for each race (separate groups for human, elvish, orc/goblin and undead kingdoms, etc.)

True, but I'm sure you know how programmers are (hell, I'm becoming one), we always look for the quick fix answer. Have a limitless number of civs might require some rewriting of the code (heaven forbid! ), not to mention drawing the bitmaps to accommodate the new system.

	20-03-2002 19:09									#13
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SMAC managed to have limitless (or at least room for lots) new factions...they just added to the pool. It's one of my biggest gripes with Civ3.

RockHPI

	20-03-2002 23:48									#14
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Unless someone knows for sure otherwise, I predict that the XP will have no new civs at all.

But if there ARE... then I'm willing to bet that there will be no Celts or Carthaginians. Who could the leader be? I also strongly suspect no Arabs.

I'll now struggle to imagine what 8 they would include, rather than what I would prefer to see:

1. Spanish
2. Incas
3. Vikings
4. another sub-Saharan civ? Ethiopia?
5. Mongols (sigh)
6. Brazilians...? (I bet $1.)
7. Turks
8. er... Thai?

That's hard. I frankly doubt that there ARE 8 more civs that would seem to fit in the game.

Miznia

	21-03-2002 02:02									#15
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No famous leader for Carthage? Perhaps you unfamillar with a little man by the name of Hannibal Barca.

	21-03-2002 02:24									#16
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yeah, Hannibal for the Carthagians, for sure..
Celts a lil harder.. maybe jus go with Cunobelin again..

	21-03-2002 05:59									#17
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Yeah I hope they add some nifty features to the editor. Of course this post is about new civs...Oops.

	21-03-2002 07:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia Unless someone knows for sure otherwise, I predict that the XP will have no new civs at all. But if there ARE... then I'm willing to bet that there will be no Celts or Carthaginians. Who could the leader be? I also strongly suspect no Arabs.

Hannibal is definitely the best choice as a Carthaginian ruler. I don't know about the Celts as I haven't studied into them.

NO ARABS?!

The Arabs are responsible for the recovery of much of the great knowledge of ancient Greece. If it weren't for them, we probably would've forgotten people like Aristotle. We would've forgotten how to build stable architecture, the modern concept of the hospital would've also been out.

Not to mention that their great empire within approx. 150 years of having started Islam managed to expand their empire as far west as Morocco, and as far east as India.

I think that if I were to get the Civ Editor as I described above, and Firaxis didn't add the Arabs already, I'd have to do it. With King Saladin as the ruler (he liberated the Holy Land from the barbarian Normans and Franks and won the second crusade against England).

The arabs could be Scientific, Expansionist; Religious, Expansionist; Religious, Scientific (though Babylon who would be in the same cultural group are also Religious, Scientific)

Their unique unit would be the Mameluke. It would replace the knight, wouldn't require horses and maybe have increased attack.

That's my thought anyway. Just a few ideas for a civ I'd add if it isn't in the XP (although the mameluke may be a problem unless they make it possible to edit graphics individually, as the mameluke would need a camel-rider graphic).

	21-03-2002 16:56									#19
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I'm sure every civ has a glorious history.

http://www.ealaghol.demon.co.uk/celtenc/celtintr.htm

"Where the Romans make a desert they call it peace."

	21-03-2002 19:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia Unless someone knows for sure otherwise, I predict that the XP will have no new civs at all. I also strongly suspect no Arabs. 4. another sub-Saharan civ? Ethiopia? Miznia

I'd be happy if you're right. More important than new civs are new options, new units and a real scenario editor.

There probably doesn't need to be a monolithic Arab civ, I think there's too much diversity within them. I'd rather have the Turks, or the Lybians - can you imagine joining an alliance with Qaddafi against America.

If there's one sub-Saharan civ it should have been Ethiopia, not the Zulu. Ethiopia has the longest history of any modern sub-Saharan state. There's the rock hewn churches of Lalibela, the oblisks (the tallest of which is still being "preserved" in Rome), the more than 1500 year old Amharic written language, the traditions of the Ethiopian Coptic Church, and the probable location of the Ark of the Covenant in northern Ethiopia.

	21-03-2002 23:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Blaze yeah, Hannibal for the Carthagians, for sure.. Celts a lil harder.. maybe jus go with Cunobelin again..

I think they could get away with having a woman leader like Boudicia. After all she waged a nearly successful war to throw the Romans out of England. Alternatively they could use Versotiox (spell?); the man whom Ceaser spent most of his time fighting in Gaul.

	21-03-2002 23:36									#22
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You folks should go take a look at the Civ3-Civilizations forum. They've already had a vote about which civs should be included and they've come up with city names, main leader, great generals, UU, and civ traits for each of the winning civs. It makes for an interesting read anyway.
I had to laugh about Korean Apolytoners spamming their demands that Korea be included in the expansion pack though. Sure, Korea is a nice place and it has an interesting culture but so does 90% of the world. We're looking for the GREATEST, most important civilizations in the history of the world. Korea just doesn't follow into that category.

	21-03-2002 23:43									#23
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I have heard of Hannibal, but what I'm thinking is... How could they depict him in such a way that would be appealing / understandable to people who don't know much about Carthaginians? That's why I don't think they would be an entertaining addition, and Firaxis won't use them.


And for the record, it's not that I WANT to see Ethiopians in the game... It's that I think they're a more likely choice than Mali, which is my preference. I close my eyes and picture western and central Africa littered with badass, rich, Sunni Mali cities. It's a more believable African superpower than the Zulus, anyway.

Miznia

	21-03-2002 23:53									#24
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quote: I had to laugh about Korean Apolytoners spamming their demands that Korea be included in the expansion pack though. Sure, Korea is a nice place and it has an interesting culture but so does 90% of the world. We're looking for the GREATEST, most important civilizations in the history of the world. Korea just doesn't follow into that category.

Ah! I forgot about Korea! You've just convinced me in the other direction. Scratch "Thai" from my guess list. Firaxis will eye Korea long before Thailand.

Although I did find the pro-Korea messages to be pretty grating, especially the "Korea should've been included instead of Japan" type, I think Korea easily fits in the next group of 8. China, Japan, Korea - they make a nice set. If necessary (for your conscience), just make Korea a "perfectionist" type civ in the Civ2 sense.

My "interesting leader" criterion doesn't work well with Korea, but it's no worse than with the Thai.

Miznia

	09-04-2002 08:22									#25
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I have been doing some thinking about this, so scratch my original post. Naturally they will have to balance out the civs over the different cultural regions. (asia, middle-east, etc)

So what do you guys think about this? This is now assuming that they include ten civs, but it has to be either ten, or five, if they are to keep the different regions balanced. Call me an optimist, but there are too many civs they would leave out if they only went with five. It's possible they could do something like seven or eight, but that would be unbalancing to the different cultural regions which are already a little bit out of wack with all the Euro civs. Here's the list I have come up with

Euros
1.Spain
2. Celts/Dutch/Vikings/Portugese (tough call)

I'm guessing it will end up being Spain and the Vikings to represent Europe.

Mediterranean
1.Carthage (Phoenecia)
2. Turks

Middle-East
1.Arabs
2. Hebrews(Isrealites)/Ethiopians(Aksumites)

Most likely the Arabs and Hebrews, especially due to recent events.

Asia
1. Mongols
2. Koreans

Americas
1. Incans
2. Mayans


And there is a rough outline of the ten civs you should expect in the XP.

Last edited by monkspider on 09-04-2002 at 08:32

	09-04-2002 08:57									#26
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I think anyone who pays money for an Expansion disk - while we still wait for Firaxis to finally get Civ III right - is a true sucker.

Hey Firaxis, you plan to try to sell us a lame Scenario disk, too? Is that why you left a scenario-builder out of Civ III?? No thanks.

	09-04-2002 09:44									#27
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Do I have this right?

Galley sinks Coracle?

No wonder you've been having problems.

R

	09-04-2002 11:20									#28
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8 new Civs??? After seeing the expectations of the original Civ3 release I would expect people not to be setting their hopes so high again.

Instead plan for 2 new Civs... and when 4 new Civs are available (total even 20) you can be happy.

Just pray the XP has MP & an Editor capable of making scenarios. Even that I would expect as a high expectation now tho.

The 4 New Civs are:

1.Vikings
2.Spanish
3.Mongols
4.*>insert Civ here which many people will say, "What the **** is that Civ doing in there?!"<*

	13-04-2002 02:30									#29
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Well, just by comparing with Age of Empires 2 and Rise of Nations, we've already been ripped off by two civs. =) They each included 18 civs (albeit AoE2 w/ expansion pack). Also, Empire Earth has a whopping 21 civs! So, instead of eight civs, we should get at least 10 in the expansion pack. =P

If you look at my new thread that I just posted, you'll see that both of these games included the Koreans, Mayans, Mongols, Spanish, and Turks, while Civ 3 did not. I don't know if we really need the Mayans since we already have the Aztecs in there, so I'd probably replace that slot with the Incans.

Anyhow, if they were to have 10 civs in the expansion pack, I would have to say it should be something like this (in order of importance):

1. Spanish
2. Mongols
3. Koreans
4. Turks
5. Incans
6. Vikings
7. Portuguese
8. Dutch
9. Ethiopians
10. Khmer

	13-04-2002 02:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I had to laugh about Korean Apolytoners spamming their demands that Korea be included in the expansion pack though. Sure, Korea is a nice place and it has an interesting culture but so does 90% of the world. We're looking for the GREATEST, most important civilizations in the history of the world. Korea just doesn't follow into that category.

By most standards, Korea is one of the greatest civilizations in the world. The reason why most people don't know much about Korea is because its history is largely "hidden". This is because many of its most important documents and artifacts have been either destroyed by the Japanese or kept in museums or collections in Japan (and labeled "Japanese"). This is not intended to be "Japan-bashing", but it is indeed history.