21-03-2002 04:23									#1
	What do you think about what's happening in Zimbabwe? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Obviously beyond commonwealth nations nothing much seems to be known about the rape, torture and murder than routinely happens against white farmers and members of the opposition party in Zimbabwe.

Just before the elections, Tony Blair failed to get sanctions against Zimbabwe for widespread and wholesale human rights abuses, primarily due to African nations who refused to punish Mugabe for his undemocratic tactics. Shortly afterwards Mugabe won their national election among widespread accusations of vote rigging and intimidation, despite surveys indicating upwards of 90% opposition to Mugabe's party in urban areas.

Mugabe claims that all of Zimbabwe's problems are due to colonialism, apparently including his own paramilitary training camps for teenager so they can terrorise any opposition, white or otherwise.

So select your choice!

	21-03-2002 04:31									#2
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quote: Just before the elections, Tony Blair failed to get sanctions against Zimbabwe for widespread and wholesale human rights abuses

If you hadn't noticed, the Commonwealth suspended Zimbabwe for at least a year, pending review.

	21-03-2002 04:33									#3
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If you hadn't noticed, the Commonwealth suspended Zimbabwe for at least a year, pending review.

Sorry, but i was talking about the CHOGM (Commonwealth Heads Of Government Meeting) in Australia a few weeks ago. I simply forgot to mention it

	21-03-2002 04:42									#4
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Yes, and they quite rightly decided to wait till after the election to decide anything. The Commonwealth observers came back with a negative report, and Zimbabwe was suspended within a week.

Having the full weight of the Commonwealth behind a suspension says more to Zimbabwe than simply lining up white countries against a black one.

	21-03-2002 04:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes, and they quite rightly decided to wait till after the election to decide anything. The Commonwealth observers came back with a negative report, and Zimbabwe was suspended within a week. Having the full weight of the Commonwealth behind a suspension says more to Zimbabwe than simply lining up white countries against a black one.

True, but the writing was already on the wall. Now hundreds, perhaps thousands, more have been subject to torture, murder, or imprisonment in the interim week/s. Better late than never, i suppose, but it's not much consolation for those affected. In any case, it holds much more weight when black countries support the move.

	21-03-2002 04:49									#6
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Nothing we can say will force Mugabe out in the next few months anyway. He's got enough of a hold on power that it'll take a while. We've maintained the Commonwealth's unity at the price of a 2 week total delay.

	21-03-2002 05:17									#7
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Tsvangirai has just been charged with treason. Undoubtedly, we'll see an even harsher crackdown of MDC supporters in the future.

	21-03-2002 05:26									#8
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Something has to be done. The below is a picture of a white farmer killed today while trying to escape when his farm was attacked. That is his dog curled up beside him.

Attachment: zimbabwe.jpg
This has been downloaded 162 time(s).

	21-03-2002 06:48									#9
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President Mugabe is a crook. Plain and simple.

	21-03-2002 06:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Something has to be done. The below is a picture of a white farmer killed today while trying to escape when his farm was attacked. That is his dog curled up beside him.

Is it really necessary to engage in voyeurism? We've all seen enough TV to know what a dead body looks like.

	21-03-2002 07:02									#11
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Mugabe IS the spawn of Satan, but we have no business forcibly removing him or restricting free trade. I hate the guy for what je did to the white farmers/landowners, though.

	21-03-2002 07:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd we have no business forcibly removing him or restricting free trade.

What's wrong with sanctions? States are under no special obligation to trade with those they distateful.

	21-03-2002 07:10									#13
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Arne't the whites in Zimbabwe British citizens of some kind? I apologize in advance, but I thought that was part of the peace treaty, or they're British nationals. Of course, I havne't been following it that closely since I stopped getting the Telegraph, so there's a very good chance I'm wrong.

	21-03-2002 07:57									#14
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quote: What's wrong with sanctions? States are under no special obligation to trade with those they distateful.

As long as the sanctions don't prevent individuals/corporations from buying and selling goods, I have less of a problem.

	21-03-2002 10:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Is it really necessary to engage in voyeurism? We've all seen enough TV to know what a dead body looks like.

You have odd ideas about voyeurism.

	21-03-2002 10:42									#16
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No I don't. Out of respect for the dead and for ourselves, I'd suggest that we weren't so inclined to flash bloody pictures of their corpses on tv/the internet/newspapers for shock value.

Oh, and in case you're quibbling with the definition of voyeurism:

quote: 2. An obsessive observer of sordid or sensational subjects

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=voyeurism

	21-03-2002 10:55									#17
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Ya I agree with he bodies thing. Like in afghanistan. Reporters have no business doing that sheit.

quote: Arne't the whites in Zimbabwe British citizens of some kind? I apologize in advance

No...I dont think. But UK government does pay to bring them back I believe. But there were only 100,000 or so in the country. Most have left. There farms were burnt down. Now S.Zimbabwe has a MASSIVE famine. And Mugabe blames the whites and the British. But its only his and basketcase distribution policies.

Dont burn down farms because whites were there. If your going to redistribute land, the least you could do is teach the people your giving it too how to farm.

Actually I support Economic Sanctions here. I also believe mugabe should be watched; henceforth

	21-03-2002 11:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Actually I support Economic Sanctions here. I also believe mugabe should be watched; henceforth

Problem with that though is that with his hold on power and control of the country's media outlets he is still pretty much unaffected and free to blame the economic reversal on anybody he wishes. Fuel anti-british/Western hatred even more.
Eliminating him from the picture altogether might be a better solution if anybody had the will to do it.
Although that course might just end up in another African civil war... No easy answers as far as I can see.

	21-03-2002 11:22									#19
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Economic sanctions accomplish absolutely nothing.

It only further impoverishes the people of Zimbabwe and gives Mugabe better propaganda.

	21-03-2002 12:13									#20
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I'll be honest, I dont' give a bloody **** about Zimbabwe or any other podunk nation that doesn't seem to be able to get its ass straightened out. What does my ****ing opinion matter? If my opinion has some chance of affecting US policy, then some European **** will just accuse the US of acting unilaterally. If my opinion has no chance of affecting US policy, then I'll be accused of being a bigoted **** by the autistic like of Comrade Tribune regardless of what I actually think. So what's the fukcing point of having a fukcing opinion, eh?

	21-03-2002 14:57									#21
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I didn't vote on the poll, because IMHO, this situation is too complicated to sum up in 5 options.
I actually visited Zimbabwe last summer. I spent nearly two months there working in a volunteer project and travelling around the country. Sothis situation concerns me a lot since I made a good deal of friends in Zimbabawe

quote: Arne't the whites in Zimbabwe British citizens of some kind? I apologize in advance

Most whites in Zimbabawe have been around there for several generations. They are just as much Zimbabaweans as is the black population. White Zimbabweans will probably have great trouble adjusting to living in great Britain.

quote: What's wrong with sanctions? States are under no special obligation to trade with those they distateful

The current sanctions aren't being very helpful (not giving Mugabe visa to visit other countries, blocking MDC leaders bank accounts), but it's the least that can be done. Economic sanctions will only do more harm than good to Zimbabwe. Mugabe has gone through a lot to remain in power. He has practically ruined a relativily wealthy country in the course of two years and doesn't seem to care. Economic sanctions won't bother him. There is a huge shortage in foreign money in Zimbabawe currently. Trading whatever Zimbabwe still has left is necessary for them to be able to continue buying oil and import food.

	21-03-2002 15:33									#22
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I think the white farmers originally got the land via violence and murder as well but then they only killed blacks

As for geting rid of dodgy governments I would rather we got rid of the Australian one first.

	21-03-2002 15:37									#23
	If not Economic sanctions, what else? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it is clear to all that Economic Sanctions alone will not drive Mr. Mugabe out of ofice. However, the notion of National Sovereignty prevents other action (unless, we are talking about "The Axis of Evil", of course, or some ex-communist dictator).

A open front of Economic Sanctions against Zimbabwe and those that break the Sactions (being them countries, business or individuals) is the most powerfull remedy. But as all remedies we know, it is bound to do harm (possibly even more harm than good).

As far as the International Community aknowledges, Mr. Mugabe is not the legitimate representative of Zimbabwean will. In fact, there is no such person right now, in Zimbabwe. In other context, we would find some powerfull nations busting there and snatching Mr. Mugabe to be present in International Human Rights Court. Legally, i don't believe Mr. Mugabe is protected by National Soveregnty for he himself made sure that Zimbabwe has no legitimate leader, but a tirant protected by an armed force. But higher "values" are in stake.

So, as no other choice is given, Economic Sanctions are to only way one can weaken the power of Mugabe. Even if it takes much more time than what is humanly accepted.

	21-03-2002 15:44									#24
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quote: So, as no other choice is given, Economic Sanctions are to only way one can weaken the power of Mugabe

Your post doesn't make clear how sanctions will effectively weaken his power. He has been elected for 6 years, and unless he dies (he's 78 IIRC), he's going to stay president for 6 years. No matter what the rest of the world thinks.

	21-03-2002 15:58									#25
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But the problem remains that no other thing can be done.

Also, economic sanctions will make it more dificult for him to obtain the resources that allow him to keep his supporters pleased.

If, somehow, the army gets to know that they'll probably have a better living (higher wages, better "toys"...) in an internationally subsidized democratic regime than in an internationally opressed one, they may choose not to support the old man any more.

However, it is an unfortunate truth that, in Africa, usually the only remedy is the death of tirant (and sometimes not even that helps).

	21-03-2002 16:13									#26
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I know of two Zimbabwians in my church. Sylvester feels that this is only a power thing. Mugabe has enuff monies. He seems to be corrupted by power and slightly irrational about it.. Clinging desperately.. Getting old too. Sad thing being the hope of Africa many years ago.. But power corrupts and if you're not all bone and bristle you stand to lose the battle.

Those two church persons work at uni's here and back in Africa. In the same one in fact here and there. When is Mugabe gonna crack down on intellectuals? Is he already doing this.

	21-03-2002 16:17									#27
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Sanction fans take note: there was a piece in the NY Times last week (can't find it now, alas) about how Mugabe is already economically isolated and has been for years. The result is that he's actually mortgaged much of the national infrastructure to...Libya! Thus, any attack on Zimbabwe's economy serves to increase the power of Col. Qaddafi. Just thought you should know.

	21-03-2002 16:23									#28
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quote: Also, economic sanctions will make it more dificult for him to obtain the resources that allow him to keep his supporters pleased.

The funny thing is that Mugabe has hardly got any supporters in Zimbabwe. Most people living in the bigger cities in Zimbabwe are MDC (opposition) supporters. People living in the rural areas get to see only state-owned television and read state-controlled papers. They are led to believe that the problems Zimbabwe are facing today are actually the result of british imperialism. Apart from that they are also intimidated by ZANU-PF members.
The only thing that basically keeps Mugabe in power is the fact that both the police and the army still support him. Most generals and other army leaders made a good profit with their influence in the war in the Democratic republic of Congo. They know Mugabe don't mind their illegal activities in Congo, whereas they can not be sure if Tsvangirai (or any other opposition member being elected president) would be just as unconcerned. So it's in their own benefit that Mugabe stays in charge.
Sad situation..

	21-03-2002 16:38									#29
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I had little opinion one way or the other o this subject UNTIL I saw that picture.
I find it very sad, and when it comes to real world affairs it is better to see than to imagine.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

	21-03-2002 16:40									#30
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Would that picture have touched you just as much if there wasn't a dog guarding his owners dead body?