22-03-2002 08:32									#31
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it should be noted that the first Southern president since the Civil War was Woodrow Wilson who was more of New Jerseyan than anything else.


thanks

	22-03-2002 08:32									#32
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States can have rights or people can have rights. I know what side I'm on. I know what side DinoDoc's on. DF, you side against democracy and against people.

	22-03-2002 08:35									#33
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Um, Britain and France declared war on Germany because Hitler invaded Belgium

Poland, they were allies of Poland which Nazi Germany attacked. They were legally bound to defend their ally.

David, Nazi Germany declared war on us after we "declared" war on Japan. We didn't provoke the Nazis, Klan-boy.

	22-03-2002 08:36									#34
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chegitz-

quote: Yeah, and they gave rights to the American people. What horrible, horrible, Amendments.

The process was terrible and the ends never justify the means.

Dino,

quote: I don't see how any self-respecting Libertarian can support the CSA to begin with anyway. It was hardly an institution committed to upholding libertarian ideals, regardless of the actions of the Union.

I'm a firm believer that wars of aggression are always morally wrong, as is forcing people to die for any cause.

Iain,

quote: Um, Britain and France declared war on Germany because Hitler invaded Belgium (and subsequently France, which was the obvious conclusion once they'd reached Belgium). Did Germany have the moral authority to invade Belgium? I think Britain and France had every right to declare war on Germany, especially seeing as France was in the process of being invaded.

First of all, it was Poland not Belgium, and secondly, two wrongs never make a right.

	22-03-2002 08:36									#35
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So, David, if I were to declare myself a new nation, that would give me AUTOMATICALLY all the rights that entailed? Thus, I can then have legal justification if I am harassed and shoot someone, because I had a cassus belli?

Seems counter intuituve to me...

BTW, the CSA did not use the original constitution, wouldn't that bother you a little DF, considering your strict adherence to it?

	22-03-2002 08:36									#36
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I probably shouldn't speak for Floyd but state's rights sustains a Republic. A democracy is irrelevent in my mind and probably in his as we are not a democracy nor have ever been one


thanks

	22-03-2002 08:38									#37
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And before you trot out Lend-Lease, remember Nazi Germany didn't declare war with us over Lend-Lease.

	22-03-2002 08:39									#38
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quote: First of all, it was Poland not Belgium, and secondly, two wrongs never make a right

I stand corrected; but the point remains the same. You'd have been quite happy for Hitler to walk all over Poland, and then (subsequently) Belgium and France? BS...

quote: The process was terrible and the ends never justify the means

Do elaborate on the "process"... "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude... shall exist within the United States" seems fairly straightforward to me. You're getting awfully close to endorsing slavery here.

	22-03-2002 08:39									#39
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quote: Poland, they were allies of Poland which Nazi Germany attacked. They were legally bound to defend their ally.

It is immoral to sign a treaty forcing your citizens to die if some other nation invades someone.

quote: David, Nazi Germany declared war on us after we "declared" war on Japan. We didn't provoke the Nazis, Klan-boy.

Oh? What would you call defending British convoys and radioing U-Boat locations to the British, then?

quote: So, David, if I were to declare myself a new nation, that would give me AUTOMATICALLY all the rights that entailed? Thus, I can then have legal justification if I am harassed and shoot someone, because I had a cassus belli?

You don't have the Constitutional right to secede, unlike States.

quote: BTW, the CSA did not use the original constitution, wouldn't that bother you a little DF, considering your strict adherence to it?

They had there own, and were independent - I see no problem there.

	22-03-2002 08:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara States can have rights or people can have rights. I know what side I'm on. I know what side DinoDoc's on. DF, you side against democracy and against people.

I think he means states as in Ohio, Georgia, Indiana, California and what you seem to be refering to are federal rights.

Who knows though, this conversation is moving too fast for me.

	22-03-2002 08:42									#41
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quote: So, David, if I were to declare myself a new nation, that would give me AUTOMATICALLY all the rights that entailed? Thus, I can then have legal justification if I am harassed and shoot someone, because I had a cassus belli?

bad point for a variety of reasons... first off, the Confederates felt that the Constitution was a contract between states and that once they felt that they were getting a bad deal from the constitution, they would have the right to break this contract. If you declared yourself a new nation, you would, like the south, reap none of the protections of the government, such as judicial, military and police protection, etc. Secondly, if you killed another person, then you would be killing an American citizen making this an act of war and you can be handled accordingly.


thanks

	22-03-2002 08:43									#42
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chegitz,

quote: And before you trot out Lend-Lease, remember Nazi Germany didn't declare war with us over Lend-Lease.

No, but it was an act of war.

Iain,

quote: I stand corrected; but the point remains the same. You'd have been quite happy for Hitler to walk all over Poland, and then (subsequently) Belgium and France? BS...

Nation-states should be responsible for themselves. It was absolutely immoral to force Brits, Americans, etc., to die for Jews and Frenchmen.

quote: Do elaborate on the "process"... "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude... shall exist within the United States" seems fairly straightforward to me. You're getting awfully close to endorsing slavery here.

Sure - the process of forcibly conquering a nation, incorporating it into your own, and forcing new laws on it without giving that nation a say.

	22-03-2002 08:44									#43
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quote: Oh? What would you call defending British convoys and radioing U-Boat locations to the British, then?

I think the key word here is "defending"... not initiating, but defending. Learn the difference.

	22-03-2002 08:45									#44
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd It is immoral to sign a treaty forcing your citizens to die if some other nation invades someone.

Irrelevent. You are claiming the Constitution overrides morality and civil rights in favor of states rights. These states, France and Britain, were completly within their rights to ally with the state of Poland. So which is it? You can't locially argue for one to support you cherished white supremacy in one case, and then against it in another to defend your beloved Nazis.

	22-03-2002 08:47									#45
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The confederates had conscription.

What's up with Article 1, section 6, number 9 of the CSA constitution?
(9) To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court.

So, they still submit to the Supreme Court?

	22-03-2002 08:47									#46
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Nation-states should be responsible for themselves. It was absolutely immoral to force Brits, Americans, etc., to die for Jews and Frenchmen.

David, Hitler had already proven quite clearly that appeasement would not stop his desires for conquest. Why is it wrong for Nation-States to pre-emptively deal with threats to them?

	22-03-2002 08:48									#47
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:Takes deep breath:

On second thought.....forget it. We've beaten this to death, brought it back to life, shot it, and then spat on it. Why did you have to bring it back to life again, MacTBone? (don't worry though, I agree with you! )

	22-03-2002 08:48									#48
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*bangs head against brick wall and goes to bed*

	22-03-2002 08:49									#49
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, but it was an act of war.

What was the act? Selling to Great Britain? Well, in that case we were belligerent on both sides, as GM and Ford were making war supplies for the Nazis.

Defending British conveys? We didn't attack Nazi U-boots.

What was the overt act?

In any event, Nazi Germany was a lawless state which was terorising all of its neighbors.

	22-03-2002 08:51									#50
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Iain,

quote: I think the key word here is "defending"... not initiating, but defending. Learn the difference.

Did they defend German warships against the British?

chegitz,

quote: Irrelevent. You are claiming the Constitution overrides morality and civil rights in favor of states rights. These states, France and Britain, were completly within their rights to ally with the state of Poland. So which is it? You can't locially argue for one to support you cherished white supremacy in one case, and then against it in another to defend your beloved Nazis.

Eh? I'm arguing that while Britain/France had the right to go to war, it was wrong to do so - which is different, because the Southern States had every right to secede.

Mac,

quote: The confederates had conscription.

And that was morally wrong.

quote: What's up with Article 1, section 6, number 9 of the CSA constitution? (9) To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court. So, they still submit to the Supreme Court?

That section is speaking of Congress's power to set up federal courts.

	22-03-2002 08:54									#51
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After reading through a lot of it, apparently the CSA wanted to be a clone of the US, without being subject to the politicians in the north and the taxes. Plus they wanted to keep the slaves.

Now, morally, they should've stayed in the Union because, by leaving they forced the murder of multitudes.

BTW, the Union didn't murdered those confederates, unless self-defense is now murder. When someone has a gun pointed to you, it's not murder when you shoot back.

	22-03-2002 08:55									#52
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DD,

quote: David, Hitler had already proven quite clearly that appeasement would not stop his desires for conquest. Why is it wrong for Nation-States to pre-emptively deal with threats to them?

Because it is morally wrong to force people to die for a cause, no matter what the cause is.

chegitz,

quote: What was the act? Selling to Great Britain? Well, in that case we were belligerent on both sides, as GM and Ford were making war supplies for the Nazis.

We both know that it was neither nearly the scale of Lend-Lease, nor was it an act by the US government - GM/Ford were fully within their moral rights.

quote: Defending British conveys? We didn't attack Nazi U-boots. What was the overt act?

We actually did on occasion, but more importantly we found them and radioed their location to the British.

quote: In any event, Nazi Germany was a lawless state which was terorising all of its neighbors.

It wasn't lawless, you (and I actually) just don't agree with its laws.

	22-03-2002 08:56									#53
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Floyd, you're not even consistent. If you want to take your extreme views, than there was no problem with Lend-Lease. We can give or sell bullets to anyone we want to. What they do with them is none of our concern.

	22-03-2002 08:58									#54
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Because it is morally wrong to force people to die for a cause, no matter what the cause is.

Sounds like your complaint is with conscription then, not war. Unless you blame accidental civilian deaths inflicted by the other side on the government who declared war trying to prevent more of them.

	22-03-2002 08:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Because it is morally wrong to force people to die for a cause, no matter what the cause is.

Is your objection to fighting against the Nazis dream of conquest whose stated aims were a threat to the "Allies" or is it to the concept of conscription? Because if you'll look at them closely you should see that they are two different concepts.

	22-03-2002 09:00									#56
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quote: Now, morally, they should've stayed in the Union because, by leaving they forced the murder of multitudes.

So the CSA was responsible for the US invasion?
Ah, I get it! Poland should have just surrendered to save lives!

quote: BTW, the Union didn't murdered those confederates, unless self-defense is now murder. When someone has a gun pointed to you, it's not murder when you shoot back.

The first major battle was on CSA soil, at Manassas Junction. All the CSA wanted was to be left alone, not the destruction of the US.

	22-03-2002 09:02									#57
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Back on track

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, I'm suggesting abolishing slavery was wrong because: -The South didn't want to -The sovereign CSA didn't want to -The 13th Amendment was forced down the throats of Southerners, who didn't get a valid, uncoerced vote on it -The US murdered hundreds of thousands of CSA soldiers in order to do it

-So?

-Wasn't sovereign. They only people who thought it was, was the CSA and a few Indian Nations.

-Ridiculous. What about the millions of southern blacks who suddenly got the right to vote? In any event, I read just last year that Mississippi finally approved the 13th amendment. It's all legal-like.

-I'm pretty sure the Rebel soldiers shot back. For the record, the Rebs "murdered" more Union soldiers than the other way around.

	22-03-2002 09:02									#58
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quote: We actually did on occasion, but more importantly we found them and radioed their location to the British.

How is radioing their location to the British sacrificing US lives? Surely it's doing nothing but saving the lives of those on board the ships the U-boats would have attacked?

	22-03-2002 09:02									#59
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GP,

quote: Floyd, you're not even consistent. If you want to take your extreme views, than there was no problem with Lend-Lease. We can give or sell bullets to anyone we want to. What they do with them is none of our concern.

Legally, yes, morally, no.

Snowfire,

quote: Sounds like your complaint is with conscription then, not war. Unless you blame accidental civilian deaths inflicted by the other side on the government who declared war trying to prevent more of them.

My complaint is with both conscription and war, as they both force people to die.

DD,

quote: Is your objection to fighting against the Nazis dream of conquest whose stated aims were a threat to the "Allies" or is it to the concept of conscription? Because if you'll look at them closely you should see that they are two different concepts.

Both. See above.

	22-03-2002 09:08									#60
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Lonestar,

quote: -So? -Wasn't sovereign. They only people who thought it was, was the CSA and a few Indian Nations. -Ridiculous. What about the millions of southern blacks who suddenly got the right to vote? In any event, I read just last year that Mississippi finally approved the 13th amendment. It's all legal-like. -I'm pretty sure the Rebel soldiers shot back. For the record, the Rebs "murdered" more Union soldiers than the other way around.

-So the 13th-15th wouldn't have been ratified if the North didn't force them to be.

-So might makes right, then?

-So? It was still forced down their throats against their will.

-It was self-defense, they were just better at self-defense than the US was at murder.

Iain,

quote: How is radioing their location to the British sacrificing US lives? Surely it's doing nothing but saving the lives of those on board the ships the U-boats would have attacked?

They were causing the deaths of Germans, though.