22-03-2002 12:11									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The southern politicians were concerned with not being able to maintain power in a majoritarian government of the United States, took the route of secession. And thus, their institution of slavery was becoming more threatened.

They were more concerned with the notion of the Federal government being used as an instrument of economic struggle between north and south - the Federal government sure looked the other way at state sovereignty issues in the north (Delaware slavery throughout the war, Dorr's rebellion, etc.) while those same Yankee politicians took a lesser view of southern sovereignty.

quote: I have also read one book, in which the historian argued that the seccessionists were in the minority, and forced this decision on the majority Southerners. Either secede from the Union, or if you remain in the Union, and betray your native Southern state. I wish I can recall the book's title and author. I will look at my list, and let you know what source it is.

That is incorrect as a generalization. There were regions in the south with strong pro-Union sentiment, especially eastern Tennessee, and northwestern Virginia. At the statewide level, though, majority support for secession was pretty solid, at least when it was established - Virginia first rejected secession, then voted to secede in response to Lincoln's unconstitutional demand for specially furnished regiments of "volunteers."

There was also significant pro-Confederacy support in the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland, as well as in southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and in Delaware. It is well known that people on both sides mistreated and threatened sympathizers of the other side.

In James Robertson's biography of Stonewall Jackson, he gives considerable treatment to Jackson's estrangement from his sister (to whom he'd always been especially close) along with his efforts to protect her from retribution, and also to the eventual exile north of his former father-in-law George Junkin, who was driven from his post as president of Washington College (now Washington and Lee University, next to VMI. At the local level, there was a lot of divisiveness and bitterness towards those who disagreed with the majority view in their area.

However, that's a long way from a general (and inaccurate) assertion that secession was not popularly supported by the majority within each state. (we're talking franchised majority, not some revisionist hypothetical)

	22-03-2002 12:15									#92
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As usual... you portray your thoughts on the matter quite well, Mike.

Just that I wish you were not a Southern Revisionist. I am neither a Northerner nor Southerner in my views. I just call it as I have read and learned about it.

I call it a Civil War simply because it was a war on our own turf, between our own families. Whether one side was recognized as a sovereign nation or not matters nothing to me. I just see it as a Civil War. It was not Northern Aggression anymore than it was Southern Rebellion or Resistance. Both sides had their faults to be sure.

My only comment to Floyd in this thread, though ... was his comparison of the attack on Fort Sumter being similar to an Embassy withdrawal in modern times from a foreign nation. Bad analogy as far as I thought.

And some of his views just seemed odd to me. I don't want to go into details because then it may look like I am just bashing on him. Lets just say that we both disagree on many issues.

	22-03-2002 12:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun My undergrad major is History, and I plan to go to graduate school after I graduate. Then I plan to someday be a professor, and teach undergrad college students U.S. history. I have a particular interest in United State's history from 1850's through the 1880's. Westward expansion, organization of new territory, and the admission of new states was intertwined with the issue of the expansion or constriction of slavery in antebellum United States. Slavery became the central issue throughout the antebellum era, and by the time the Civil War erupted, slavery's fate was sealed. It became abolished through the act of war, and emancipation. The southern politicians were concerned with not being able to maintain power in a majoritarian government of the United States, took the route of secession. And thus, their institution of slavery was becoming more threatened. I have also read one book, in which the historian argued that the seccessionists were in the minority, and forced this decision on the majority Southerners. Either secede from the Union, or if you remain in the Union, and betray your native Southern state. I wish I can recall the book's title and author. I will look at my list, and let you know what source it is.

Sorry for my self-quote, but I located the source that is related with the last paragraph of my quoted post above. The book is titled "The Reintegration of American History—Slavery and the Civil War" by William W. Freehling.

And if you want to talk about crimes against humanity during the Civil War, do not forget the black soldiers who were massacred after surrenduring to Confederate soldiers.

Michael is right --- it's a very basic fact that abolition of slavery did not take place until direct military occupation by Union troops in parts of the Confederacy.

	22-03-2002 12:24									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That is incorrect as a generalization. There were regions in the south with strong pro-Union sentiment, especially eastern Tennessee, and northwestern Virginia. At the statewide level, though, majority support for secession was pretty solid, at least when it was established - Virginia first rejected secession, then voted to secede in response to Lincoln's unconstitutional demand for specially furnished regiments of "volunteers." There was also significant pro-Confederacy support in the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland, as well as in southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and in Delaware. It is well known that people on both sides mistreated and threatened sympathizers of the other side.

In regards to this part of your comments, thanks for reiterating on something I already knew. But I disagree with your comment about Virginia's decision to secede from the Union.

	22-03-2002 13:03									#95
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quote: Originally posted by GP "The War of Northern Aggression" sounds overwrought. Never heard that much.

It's a joke - sure is fun to watch some people splut and sputter when they hear it - just good ol' southern chain pullin' is all it is.

	22-03-2002 13:09									#96
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quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 As usual... you portray your thoughts on the matter quite well, Mike. Just that I wish you were not a Southern Revisionist.

I'm not one in fact - just some folk like to put that label on any of us who have something other than the "evil monolithic slaveholding south" against the "glorious Yankee guardians of virtue and goodness" view of things.

In some respects, I'm more scathing towards the south than any die-hard Yankee - especially with respect to southern politicians, Davis's military micromismanagement, and southern economic policy (to the extent you could call it that).

Mr Fun - the record of the two votes on Virginia secession is clear. The first vote, prior to Lincoln's call for Virginia to furnish troops for an invasion of a sister state, was strongly against secession. The second vote, prompted by Lincoln's directive to the states, resulted in a very strong shift in favor - the net result was the Confederacy added four states, and three states declared themselves neutral, while remaining in the Union.

Although I think you might be disagreeing on my view of the constitutionality of Lincoln's call for state volunteers.

	22-03-2002 13:11									#97
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Oh yeah - and SnowFire - if you can dig up that post in question, and throw it in here, I'll have a go with you on the subject of Fort Barrancas.

	22-03-2002 13:12									#98
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I don't very much like the tone of your voice, young man. :-P~~

You are evil.

Rebel bastard.

	22-03-2002 13:14									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's a joke - sure is fun to watch some people splut and sputter when they hear it - just good ol' southern chain pullin' is all it is.

Figured.

	22-03-2002 13:17									#100
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quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 I don't very much like the tone of your voice, young man. :-P~~ You are evil.

I do try my best.

quote: Rebel bastard.

And damn proud of it.

	22-03-2002 13:18									#101
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You know, usually when you post in a serious thread, I tend to take you in that manner... so I assume if you call yourself a Southern Revisionist... then I imagined that that was what you were. But......

.... It never appeared to me that way in your posts as you do post about the War in straightforward facts. Not in a southern or northern favor... as it should be.

You're still a Rebel Bastard though.

	22-03-2002 13:22									#102
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MtG: Sure. If you've got your page count set to max like I have, it should be right at the top of the page. But post number 101, presumably. Date 19-02-2002 21:06.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...50&pagenumber=4

And oh yah, note that I never made the "might makes right" claim, and in fact IIRC Lincoln said something along the lines of "let us hope right makes might." Seems like it did, eh? ;-)

	22-03-2002 13:22									#103
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That "rebel bastard" even assumed I was generalizing in my previous post on this thread. And on that assumption, he posted information I already knew, assuming I did not know that.

MTG -- next time ask me what you would like me to elaborate on, instead of assuming I made generalization. thanks

	22-03-2002 13:30									#104
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Yeah... but I call him Rebel Bastard from a long standing friendship going back a few years now to Alpha OWO.

I took his Dam Yankee comments at the time, to heart when I shouldn't have. Now it is a kind of respect joke thing. As he has with a couple of us other Dam Yankees as well. ( Chris comes to mind)

And I'm a NY Yankee... the worse kind.

	22-03-2002 13:32									#105
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I'm just stuck now, living in NC with all these Rebels.

:-P~~

	22-03-2002 19:50									#106
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quote: The 13th Amendment was passed quite legally. Get over it. When we seceded from the Union, we rescinded those bonds and obligations between our sovereign states and the Yankee states, and with the Federal government. We also rescinded any rights under the Constitution.

Right, *I* agree - BUT my argumeny here is that that action by the US was morally wrong, and, more importantly, the US never viewed the CSA as independent, therefore the Southern States never left from their POV, and as such what they did was legally wrong as well, if you accept the premise - as so many Unionists seem to - that might makes right.

	22-03-2002 20:40									#107
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I've been doing some researching and I'm starting to think the Constitution did provide for this.

Article 1, Section 10 (Powers Denied to the States), Clause1, of the original Constitution of the United States states that: "no state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation." When southern states seceded from the Union and formed the Confederation, they defied this section of the Constitution.

Article 6, Supremacy of the National Government, states that: "The Constitution and the laws of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, to anything in the constitution."

Since the Southern states mutually agreed to uphold all Articles of the Constitution, it would be illegal to go in opposition to any part of them. These are specific examples of the Constitution that the South opposed by seceding from the Union and forming the Confederacy.

If they wanted to, I guess they could just remain automonous states that could not enter any treaty, etc.

	22-03-2002 20:43									#108
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quote: Article 1, Section 10 (Powers Denied to the States), Clause1, of the original Constitution of the United States states that: "no state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation." When southern states seceded from the Union and formed the Confederation, they defied this section of the Constitution. Article 6, Supremacy of the National Government, states that: "The Constitution and the laws of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, to anything in the constitution." Since the Southern states mutually agreed to uphold all Articles of the Constitution, it would be illegal to go in opposition to any part of them. These are specific examples of the Constitution that the South opposed by seceding from the Union and forming the Confederacy. If they wanted to, I guess they could just remain automonous states that could not enter any treaty, etc.

You're missing the obvious fact that once a State secedes, it is no longer bound by the laws it used to live under, or the US Constitution. This is just common sense

	22-03-2002 20:48									#109
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David, you have troubling understanding the part that says "no state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation"??

AFTER the completion of secession, the Confederate states were not bound by Union laws obviously. BUT DURING the process of initial secession, they were violating the law that says "no state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation."

	22-03-2002 20:51									#110
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The CSA didn't form until well after secession - and the second a state seceded it ceased to be bound. I thought you were a history major?

	22-03-2002 21:03									#111
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Another problem I have with secession, is if it was so integral to the Union, why are there are no sections in the Constitution dealing with it? There is a large section on the admittance of new States, but nothing on departing States.

Also, what process must the States go through to secede? Is it the Governor's decision? The decision of the State Assembly? Does the State have to ask for permission?

	22-03-2002 21:09									#112
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat They were more concerned with the notion of the Federal government being used as an instrument of economic struggle between north and south -

Are we talking about the same politicians who essentially declared that thier position was thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery?

	22-03-2002 21:12									#113
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Are we talking about the same politicians who essentially declared that thier position was thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery?

*cough* Mississippi burning*cough*

	22-03-2002 21:38									#114
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Corellia Closes Borders
Bel Iblis Leaves Senate in Uproar
Corellians Insist it is not Secession - Invoke Obscure Constitutional Proviso

Ando, Sy Myrth Secede

I thought that it would be of interest since it deals with several members of a Republic's response to the overbearing moves of the central government.

Last edited by DinoDoc on 22-03-2002 at 21:56

	22-03-2002 22:08									#115
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That is incorrect as a generalization. There were regions in the south with strong pro-Union sentiment, especially eastern Tennessee, and northwestern Virginia. At the statewide level, though, majority support for secession was pretty solid, at least when it was established - Virginia first rejected secession, then voted to secede in response to Lincoln's unconstitutional demand for specially furnished regiments of "volunteers." There was also significant pro-Confederacy support in the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland, as well as in southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, and in Delaware. It is well known that people on both sides mistreated and threatened sympathizers of the other side.

It's also worth noting that the largest mass hanging EVER in the United States occured in Northern Texas, when Rebel Calverymen rode into Cooke county and hung "at least 42 of these prisoners for conspiring to commit treason and forment insurrection."

Said "prisoners" were pro-Union settlers who (1) voted not to secede in the referendum, and (2) resisted conscription when it came.

Now, thanks to Neo-Confederates like David Floyd and the UDC, there's a Pro-Confederate monument on the site that omits any mention of the awful crime. Said monument's inscription ends with "..No nation rose so white and fair, None fell so free of crime."

Of course, Neo-Confederates have been successful in blocking out memory of most pro-union southerners, even in area dominated by them. I wonder if David's Ancestor was a Unionist, but he's just acting all proud of the confederacy because that's 'cool'.

	22-03-2002 22:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone I've been doing some researching and I'm starting to think the Constitution did provide for this. Article 1, Section 10 (Powers Denied to the States), Clause1, of the original Constitution of the United States states that: "no state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation." When southern states seceded from the Union and formed the Confederation, they defied this section of the Constitution.

States did not enter into the Confederacy until after they seceded from the Union.

quote: Article 6, Supremacy of the National Government, states that: "The Constitution and the laws of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, to anything in the constitution." Since the Southern states mutually agreed to uphold all Articles of the Constitution, it would be illegal to go in opposition to any part of them. These are specific examples of the Constitution that the South opposed by seceding from the Union and forming the Confederacy.

The Constitution (or more precisely, the state delegations which ratified it), did not contemplate either that the Federal government would itself violate the Constitution, and no "remedy" was specified for such event. The immediate precedent was the Articles of Confederation, and the states each agreed to terminate their participation in such. The key is the intent of the parties who ratified the Constitution - they considered themselves to be independent, sovereign entities who entered into a limited purpose, limited scope, voluntary association with similar sovereign entities to accomplish limited, specified, common goals.

quote: If they wanted to, I guess they could just remain automonous states that could not enter any treaty, etc.

Once they seceded, they were then free to do what they chose.

	22-03-2002 22:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar It's also worth noting that the largest mass hanging EVER in the United States occured in Northern Texas, when Rebel Calverymen rode into Cooke county and hung "at least 42 of these prisoners for conspiring to commit treason and forment insurrection." Said "prisoners" were pro-Union settlers who (1) voted not to secede in the referendum, and (2) resisted conscription when it came. Now, thanks to Neo-Confederates like David Floyd and the UDC, there's a Pro-Confederate monument on the site that omits any mention of the awful crime. Said monument's inscription ends with "..No nation rose so white and fair, None fell so free of crime."

UDC are a bunch of idiots. And yeah - there were a lot of crimes committed against "dissidents" in the west - Kansas and Missouri were pretty damned bad too, and the whole raider / bushwhacker thang in Tennessee and Kentucky - both the Confederate actions and Union actions were pretty disgusting.

And Texas had the misfortune of having Sterling "Pap" Price as the head of the Texas Rangers at the time - then going into the CSA as a Major General. He was a disgrace to the species, on a number of levels, and his men were worse.

	22-03-2002 22:25									#118
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In the interest of Balance, the Kansas Jayhawkers weren't that much nicer than the Bushwackers.

	22-03-2002 22:30									#119
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Even though I know DF understands the CSA was no better than the Union, I would like to point out one thing I learned recently. Eastern Tenesee tried to secede from the Confederacy and the Confederated denied them the option.

Also, WRT conscription, according to family history, I have a relative that was drafted by the Union, but paid someone else to go for him so that he could stay and farm. From what I was told, that was legal at the time. So, during the Civil War, there were ways to not be conscripted.

	22-03-2002 22:47									#120
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I would assume that all states decided to be part of the union of their own free will. If the states legislatures voted to secede, were they not entitled to ? Did they have the right to decide ? And if not, is there / can there be any mechanism for a state to secede/seperate from the union ? And how much does the union have a say in the manner in which that is decided ?

I'd like to have your opinions on this.