25-03-2002 12:25									#31
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quote: It was a biography. The film was an adaptation of the biography and left out some of the most critical parts.

Again, who cares?

It didn't fit into the story that they were trying to tell. And yes, even biography's try to tell a story.

Sorry, but people don't want to watch 4 hour movies .

	25-03-2002 12:27									#32
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Imran, it wasn't cut out to make the movie shorter.

It was cut out because rednecks would never go see a movie that involved bisexuality.
It was cut out because Jews would never go see a movie about an anti-semetic.

It was cut out to make it less controversial, to get more of the almighty buck.



Films that bend like that to make the the story more accessable to the general public shouldn't be praised by any critics, other than for technical merit and acting abilities.

	25-03-2002 12:30									#33
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Thank you Mr. Conspiracy theory, but no.

It was cut because it didn't figure into the story about the crazy brilliant math man and his loyal wife.

	25-03-2002 12:32									#34
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Of course, Imran, of course.

Obviously such things are minor facts, since the movie paints him almost like a hero. He wouldn't be a hero if he had real faults and "abnormal tendancies".

I don't like the movie on principle. It butchered the book far more than any other movie I can think of, and Russel Crowe didn't really blow me away as an actor in the movie either.

	25-03-2002 12:33									#35
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You just are upset the movie didn't advance the political agenda you wanted it to.

	25-03-2002 12:35									#36
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The truth?

You're damn right.

How would you like it if John Nash was really an Arab but they made him white in the movie simply because it didn't "figure into the story about the crazy brilliant math man and his loyal wife."?

	25-03-2002 12:39									#37
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Nice strawman.

You know that it is a different issue. You can erase portions of a person's life for a story, but you can't erase the person .

	25-03-2002 12:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You know that it is a different issue. You can erase portions of a person's life for a story, but you can't erase the person .

Wait, so being bisexual has less of an impact on somebody's personality/person as having a different color of skin?

Ohh ohh ohh...

	25-03-2002 12:43									#39
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Yes.

Now can we stop with the strawman argument?

	25-03-2002 12:45									#40
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The strawman belongs to you, Imran.

I'm surprised you think that, of all people, though.

	25-03-2002 12:46									#41
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Imran,

How does the "bisexual" part not go with the "loyal wife" part?

	25-03-2002 12:49									#42
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The strawman belongs to me?

Now you are just going "Am Not" "Am Too".

*shakes head*

How the hell does he being bisexual have ANYTHING to do with the story of the movie? Him being white kinda does.

MM: Because she didn't really know about his 'tendancies'

Hell, if they threw in a scene about him being bisexual, all it would seem to most people (myself included) was some political statement in the middle of a pretty good story.

And what reason is there to include him being an anti-semite? Hell, why don't we include all his beliefs and make the movie 2 days long?

	25-03-2002 12:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The strawman belongs to me? Now you are just going "Am Not" "Am Too". *shakes head* How the hell does he being bisexual have ANYTHING to do with the story of the movie? Him being white kinda does.

That's complete and utter nonsense.

The argument is it's a bastardized story. A hugely one.

A person's sexuality is a HUGE PART of who a person is. Moreso than skin color these days (I'd argue that, anyway).

You're telling me that you would be a much different person if your skin was white than if you were gay?

That's why the strawman belongs to you.

quote: Hell, if they threw in a scene about him being bisexual, all it would seem to most people (myself included) was some political statement in the middle of a pretty good story.

Political statement? In a BIOGRAPHY about some man's life?
That's stretching it, Imran.

quote: And what reason is there to include him being an anti-semite? Hell, why don't we include all his beliefs and make the movie 2 days long?

Because it's a fairly large part to how he thought about people, don't you think? About who he was? And considering this movie is about HIM and WHO HE WAS, I'd think that those are fairly important pieces that are missing.

And why are they missing? To make the film less controversial. Plain and simple. For that reason, it shouldn't win one award except for technical merit and acting. Hell, it shouldn't even be NOMINATED for best screenplay adaptation.

	25-03-2002 13:01									#44
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Jesus Christ, I bet you were on of the loonies that were up at arms about The Patriot and U-571

It's a ****ing Movie! Get over yourself!

quote: You're telling me that you would be a much different person if your skin was white than if you were gay?

HELL YES! What are you nuts? Skin color would make you incredibly different, because of all that it entales.

quote: Political statement? In a BIOGRAPHY about some man's life? That's stretching it, Imran.

Yes, of course. Just because it is a biography doesn't mean that every little piddling event should be included, just because it is about his life.

So, wait, did the movie (or book) follow his life since he was born? WELL, WHY NOT? It's a biography, isn't it?

quote: Because it's a fairly large part to how he thought about people, don't you think? About who he was? And considering this movie is about HIM and WHO HE WAS, I'd think that those are fairly important pieces that are missing.

No, the movie isn't about him and who he was. The movie is about the story of a man struggling with mental illness with a genious mind, and a loving wife. Those aspects of Nash's life makes a good story.

quote: And why are they missing? To make the film less controversial. Plain and simple.

BULLSHIT! They are missing because they don't add to the story. Movies are made either because of their story or because of a political message. This was a story movie.

God, I hope you'd never go into filmmaking, because you'd be the most piss-poor one that has ever existed. You'd make a movie based on someone's life based on who they were rather than the engaging story that was a part of their life.

Once again, for your knowledge Movies are about a story. The gay aspects and the anti-semitism didn't fit into the story or add anything to it. So why include it? I wouldn't.

$100 (US) says you wouldn't be this adamant if you weren't bi. This is a political crusade, and not anything with good moviemaking.

edit: And it is utter bullshit that they pulled it to make the film less controversial. Movies fall over themselves to make controversy. A less able filmmaker would have salvated to throw in Nash's bisexuality in the film. Hell, most would have. I'm just happy this filmmaker didn't feel the need to make a political statement and rather just wanted to tell the story that he felt would make the best movie.

	25-03-2002 13:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Jesus Christ, I bet you were on of the loonies that were up at arms about The Patriot and U-571 It's a ****ing Movie! Get over yourself!

It seems you're the one that's particularly upset about it.

I'm just saying the fact that it leaves out big pieces of a man's life in a movie about a man's life, it shouldn't be even nominated for awards such as "best adaptation".

quote: HELL YES! What are you nuts? Skin color would make you incredibly different, because of all that it entales.

Okay, Imran, if that's what you think.
Although it's pretty egocentric, but hey, what can ya do?

quote: Yes, of course. Just because it is a biography doesn't mean that every little piddling event should be included, just because it is about his life. So, wait, did the movie (or book) follow his life since he was born? WELL, WHY NOT? It's a biography, isn't it?

Imran, the political statement here is the REMOVAL of certain aspects from the movie to make the movie more accessable to the public. There are plenty of scenes still in the movie FAR less relevant than ones about his bisexuality or about his anti-semtisim.

quote: No, the movie isn't about him and who he was. The movie is about the story of a man struggling with mental illness with a genious mind, and a loving wife. Those aspects of Nash's life makes a good story.

So, again then, it'd be perfectly fine to make Nash white if he was Arab, since it has nothing to do with his story?

quote: BULLSHIT! They are missing because they don't add to the story.

Neither do half of the scenes in the movie. Have you even seen this movie? It's BORING.

quote: Movies are made either because of their story or because of a political message. This was a story movie.

And a political one, judging by what they cut out.

quote: God, I hope you'd never go into filmmaking, because you'd be the most piss-poor one that has ever existed. You'd make a movie based on someone's life based on who they were rather than the engaging story that was a part of their life.

If I went into film making I'd make documentaries.

quote: Once again, for your knowledge Movies are about a story. The gay aspects and the anti-semitism didn't fit into the story or add anything to it. So why include it? I wouldn't.

Why would you include it if he was Arab? I wouldn't. I mean, why would I do that? It doesn't add anythign to the story. It's not a political statement making the man white. No, not at all... It would be a political statement if we made him Arab though...

quote: $100 (US) says you wouldn't be this adamant if you weren't bi. This is a political crusade, and not anything with good moviemaking.

$100 (US) says you wouldn't be this adament of saying it's okay if Nash was Arab and turned into white...

	25-03-2002 13:13									#46
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You know the idea of Nash being an Arab as compared to him being bisexual is total different.

Making him white if he was Arab is rewriting history, neglecting to mention he is bisexual is an omission. One (his skin color) is essential to the story, the other (his sexual tendancies) isn't.

I hope this ludicrous strawman is now over.

	25-03-2002 13:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui edit: And it is utter bullshit that they pulled it to make the film less controversial. Movies fall over themselves to make controversy. A less able filmmaker would have salvated to throw in Nash's bisexuality in the film. Hell, most would have. I'm just happy this filmmaker didn't feel the need to make a political statement and rather just wanted to tell the story that he felt would make the best movie.

By that logic, L.I.E. would have been a runaway success...

	25-03-2002 13:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You know the idea of Nash being an Arab as compared to him being bisexual is total different. Making him white if he was Arab is rewriting history, neglecting to mention he is bisexual is an omission. One (his skin color) is essential to the story, the other (his sexual tendancies) isn't. I hope this ludicrous strawman is now over.

Imran, the problem here is in the movie Nash is straight.
In real life he was not.
This is rewriting history, just as much so as him being Arab and changing him to White would have been. Hell, you could even argue that they "neglected to make him Arab as an omission".

I hope you can see your hypocrisy and double standards as well as I can.

	25-03-2002 13:17									#49
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So here is a question. Are you mortally offended about those movies about Charles Lindburg that don't include his flirtation with Naziism?

And your answer that you'd make documentaries shows that you really don't see what moviemaking is about. Documentaries are the most boring pieces of film that exist on earth.

	25-03-2002 13:20									#50
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quote: Imran, the problem here is in the movie Nash is straight. In real life he was not.

Being bisexual means you are hetero and homo sexual at the same time. They showed his hetero side, which was/is also his public side.

Sorry, but your political crusade ain't gonna sway me.

I hope you can see your grasping at straws so that you can push your agenda as well as I can.

	25-03-2002 13:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So here is a question. Are you mortally offended about those movies about Charles Lindburg that don't include his flirtation with Naziism?

This is what I mean about your strawman.
I never said anything about being offended by it, nor did I even say it's a bad movie.

All I've been saying was I found it boring (unreleated to current argument), and that it shouldn't be up for Oscar nominations for things like "Best screenplay adaptation", when it clearly wasn't one of the best this year.

You're making it out to be a big crusade like I want the movie banned because it's propaganda or something...

quote: And your answer that you'd make documentaries shows that you really don't see what moviemaking is about. Documentaries are the most boring pieces of film that exist on earth.

And I'm one of the most boring people on that exist on the Earth, so I'd make documentaries.

Although I've found certain documentaries more exciting than A Beautiful Mind, to be honest.

	25-03-2002 13:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Being bisexual means you are hetero and homo sexual at the same time. They showed his hetero side, which was/is also his public side. Sorry, but your political crusade ain't gonna sway me. I hope you can see your grasping at straws so that you can push your agenda as well as I can.

Imran, you don't seem to have a very logical mind for somebody going into Law...

Not showing the other side, the people assume he's straight. He's not. You're arguing semantics now, "blahblahblah, they never said he wasn't bisexual, they just only deal with his heterosexuality". In the movie he was hetero, in the real world he was bi, this is rewriting history no matter how you want to frame it.

	25-03-2002 13:23									#53
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quote: I never said anything about being offended by it, nor did I even say it's a bad movie. All I've been saying was I found it boring (unreleated to current argument), and that it shouldn't be up for Oscar nominations for things like "Best screenplay adaptation", when it clearly wasn't one of the best this year.

You said earlier:

quote: I would have liked A Beautiful Mind had it actually been accurate.

Basically saying it was inaccurate on purpose (for a political end ) indicates that you were offended by it, and your statement says that you thought it wasn't a good movie.

Anything else?

	25-03-2002 13:24									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You said earlier: quote: I would have liked A Beautiful Mind had it actually been accurate. Basically saying it was inaccurate on purpose (for a political end ) indicates that you were offended by it, and your statement says that you thought it wasn't a good movie. Anything else?

I'll clarify for you: I would have liked A Beautiful Mind more had it been accurate, because it certainly wasn't interesting. If a movie is to be boring, it should at least been informative and educational in some respects.

	25-03-2002 13:25									#55
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So LotR didn't score many Oscars, so what? Does someone actually think they are an accurate representation of the quality of a film?

	25-03-2002 13:26									#56
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quote: In the movie he was hetero, in the real world he was bi, this is rewriting history no matter how you want to frame it.

Was he publically bi? Did he come out to the world and say it?

So how can you assume in the movie he was totally hetero? Because he slept with his wife? That means he can't be bi?

Come on now! Stop twisting things to fit your point of view.

	25-03-2002 13:28									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Was he publically bi? Did he come out to the world and say it?

This has absolutely nothing to do with this current debate.

quote: So how can you assume in the movie he was totally hetero? Because he slept with his wife? That means he can't be bi?

In today's world, people are assumed to be straight. Particularly when they're seen having sex with a woman, Imran.

quote: Come on now! Stop twisting things to fit your point of view.

Are you even looking at what you're saying?
First it's calling my arguments a strawman when you're the one off on how you interpreted that I was offended by it.
And now you're saying I'm twisting things?

	25-03-2002 13:33									#58
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It was a huge strawman. Race is totally different (and much more important) than sexual orientation.

And I don't believe for a second you weren't offended by it.

quote: In today's world, people are assumed to be straight. Particularly when they're seen having sex with a woman, Imran.

And your point? The movie wasn't about his sexual orientation. It was about his mental illness and how his wife stood by him while he was going nutty. Tell me how bisexuality fits in there?

	25-03-2002 13:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It was a huge strawman. Race is totally different (and much more important) than sexual orientation.

That's your viewpoint.
I disagree.

quote: And I don't believe for a second you weren't offended by it.

I was on some level, I'll admit. To have somebody say that bisexuality isn't an "important" part of someone's life when I've personally spent years agonizing/worrying/questioning about it, and I can certainly tell you it changed who I was today far more than if my skin was a different color.

quote: And your point? The movie wasn't about his sexual orientation.

So what's the broad doing in it, then?

quote: It was about his mental illness and how his wife stood by him while he was going nutty. Tell me how bisexuality fits in there?

In the part where you said "how his wife stood by him".

I'm sure the rest of the thread is sick of this debate, IM me once you're done reading this and we can talk there.

	25-03-2002 13:38									#60
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quote: In the part where you said "how his wife stood by him".

Still, bisexuality plays absolutely no part in this. The wife didn't know... and it is her standing by him that is important to the story.

*sigh* only if there was still post count in the OT .