02-04-2002 03:11									#181
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger First off, I have been using the biological definition of "parasitism," not any sociological definition. Secondly and more importantly, I have already conceded to November Adam that if it is determined that the embryo is a separate entity from its mother that it is therefore human, and have abandoned the "embryo as non-human parasite" argument in favor of the (preferred) "embryo as body part" argument (that, in hindsight, I should have been following all along). How so? Murder is "wrongful killing", not "prevention of procreation." Unless all forms of birth control are murder because they prevent the formation of a human, then to remain consistent it would not be murder to abort an embryo.

In that case I would argue that killing an embryo is self-mutilation. Not as horrid an offense as murder. but still an offense- is suicide not illegal?

A person is not allowed to abuse themselves by cutting off their arms,legs,etc. They would be put in jail or in a mental institute.

And, if you argue that the embryo is a body part- then how can you explain how it is "born" and leaves its owner... "metamorphasis"?

And killing the child when it is in the womb is not prevention of procreation... "begetting offspring"... the offspring is already begat but not yet born.

quote: Edit: Upon further reading your post, it appears that you do grant the same "rights as humans" to sperm and eggs as to newborns. I can't even begin to fathom this, seeing as how sperm and eggs don't even have human DNA.

Well... they have DNA that will form into human DNA, and thus they can be considered a type of human being. (Sadly I have to argue for sperm and egg cells to make the more important argument plain.)

	02-04-2002 03:13									#182
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger So the value of life of the mentally retarded is less than the value of life of the non-mentally retarded? That seems to be what you are arguing here, since you're in favor of abortion if the child might be born mentally retarded...

Loin, if we took the risk of allowing incested children to be born, this world would soon become full of retarded people!

	02-04-2002 03:16									#183
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam So just the zygote... if it is the only one than it is could be possible that it isn't a body part.

Possible? Yes, if it were impossible then there'd be no point in arguing whether or not the zygote is a body part or a separate organism. However, this hardly constitutes proof.

quote: I'm not arguing about an independent organism rather a seperate organism.

Sorry, I was interchanging terms. By "independent organism" I meant "separate organism."

quote: I'm pretty sure the sole goal of the sperm cell is to meet with the egg cell.

Agreed.

quote: THIS is the act of procreation, it creates a cell that is not native to the womens body, thus it is seperate. Once the zygote is created what further act of procreation is required?

The zygote must implant itself on the wall of the uterus, then it must grow into an embryo, then the embryo must grow into a separate organism (a fetus/newborn). Only then is the process of procreation completed.

quote: The DNA has been exchanged... that's all that is necessary to start the life cycle.

The life cycle begins when a separate organism has been created, which would be the fetus/newborn. Prior to this the sperm/egg/zygote/embryo are mere parts of their host.

quote: Do you agree that this is the life cylce for a human: zygote>embryo>fetus>infant>child>young adult> adult.... dead.

No, the life cycle is:

fetus>infant>child>young adult> adult.... dead,

with the "fetal" stage as a gray area (it might be part of the life cycle, it might not). Prior to this stage there is no separate organism, therefore the life cycle has not begun.

	02-04-2002 03:18									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Loin, if we took the risk of allowing incested children to be born, this world would soon become full of retarded people!

You avoided the question. Is the life of a retarded person worth less than the life of a non-retarded person? If not, then how do you justify abortion only when there is a possibility of a retarded person being born?

	02-04-2002 03:19									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Ok here a new point: Most pro-life activists, or posters in this thread agree that abortion should be granted in special cases like rape. This implys that an embryo is a lesser being than a newborn.

No... Not really.

In other cases where the birth threatens the mother's life, the life of the unborn should be decided by the mother, for it is a case of medical emergency. For example: if a child was threatening its mother with a gun, I would have no problem if the mother killed it. I consider the case where a birth would kill a mother the same way. Except I do not consider the unborn being malignant purposefully.

However, the fact that the woman is more important than the newborn obviously (because society has already educated her) makes it true that she is more of an asset to the society and should not be killed to give birth to a baby if she does not wish to and it threatens her life.

quote: I dont expect them to also support the killing of a newborn if the father has raped the woman.

Not really, which Is why I have a problem with it. But the fact is I believe in better early than late. I value human life very very very little. But technically if the child is already born and the woman does not want it and did not want an abortion- the state should take it and prosecute the rapist to death or something of the sort.

I dislike sexual crimes extremely....

quote: When the embryo is equal to a newborn, why make diffrences in special cases?

Embryo- always equal to a newborn which is always equal to a human which has very very few rights.

ONly a society has rights.
individual humans should have very little.

	02-04-2002 03:21									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Hm, ok so what u saying is: a) When I use a condom when having sex I kill children? b) there is no moral diffrence between a sperm and an embryo I agree with b

Both correct.

Sadly, (a) is necessary for population control
and that is the only case it is necessary.

However, I would have no qualms about using one because I am a selfish ******* and would rather not deal with children- though if an accident happened, I would stoically care for my children.

	02-04-2002 03:21									#187
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You avoided the question. Is the life of a retarded person worth less than the life of a non-retarded person? If not, then how do you justify abortion only when there is a possibility of a retarded person being born?

I've already given you my answer.

	02-04-2002 03:22									#188
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You avoided the question. Is the life of a retarded person worth less than the life of a non-retarded person? If not, then how do you justify abortion only when there is a possibility of a retarded person being born?

I for one would say yes. With reservations. A retarded person *can sometimes* accomplish things. But I would support abortion in that case if the mother had a 50-60% chance that the child would be retarded. For life would be horrid for both

	02-04-2002 03:27									#189
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud In that case I would argue that killing an embryo is self-mutilation. Not as horrid an offense as murder. but still an offense- is suicide not illegal?

Is it self-mutilitation to have a tumor removed?

quote: And, if you argue that the embryo is a body part- then how can you explain how it is "born" and leaves its owner... "metamorphasis"?

It matures into a fetus/newborn, a separate entity, thereby completing the process of procreation. So I suppose "metamorphosis" might be an apt description.

quote: And killing the child when it is in the womb is not prevention of procreation... "begetting offspring"... the offspring is already begat but not yet born.

The zygote and embryo are not yet separate organisms.

quote: Well... they have DNA that will form into human DNA, and thus they can be considered a type of human being.

Our sperm have a limited life span, after which they die and are replaced. Does this mean that failure to frequently have sex, i.e. failure to make use of our sperm, amounts to murder? Similarly, an egg is ejected during the menstruation cycle. Does this mean that failure to get pregnant during every ovulation, i.e. failure to make use of eggs, amounts to murder? These are matters that are under our control (unlike, for example, the frequent failure of the zygote to implant itself on the uterine wall), and so we are culpable for our wasted sperm/eggs.

quote: (Sadly I have to argue for sperm and egg cells to make the more important argument plain.)

Curse the need for consistency!

	02-04-2002 03:29									#190
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Possible? Yes, if it were impossible then there'd be no point in arguing whether or not the zygote is a body part or a separate organism. However, this hardly constitutes proof. Sorry, I was interchanging terms. By "independent organism" I meant "separate organism." Agreed. The zygote must implant itself on the wall of the uterus, then it must grow into an embryo, then the embryo must grow into a separate organism (a fetus/newborn). Only then is the process of procreation completed. The life cycle begins when a separate organism has been created, which would be the fetus/newborn. Prior to this the sperm/egg/zygote/embryo are mere parts of their host. No, the life cycle is: fetus>infant>child>young adult> adult.... dead, with the "fetal" stage as a gray area (it might be part of the life cycle, it might not). Prior to this stage there is no separate organism, therefore the life cycle has not begun.

Loin you aren't a host to your body parts.

uhmm... I have to check but I believe that the life cylce starts at zygote.

If a zygote is created by the exchange of DNA from 2 seperate organisms, and no other body part is I would be hesitant to call it a body part. As this doesn't fit the pattern.

Also a body part is created by that organism, your heart is created by you own cells when you are forming in the womb.. if it was formed by your mother your DNA would be the same as hers. Same goes for every other body part or biological system in your body. The zygote is the beggining of the creation of all of your cells that you have now. Thus it is seperate from the mother biologically. It is dependent for it's development, but that doesn't mean it is the same.

	02-04-2002 03:30									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I've already given you my answer.

You said that "if we took the risk of allowing incested children to be born, this world would soon become full of retarded people!" I would interpret this to mean that "retarded people have less of a right to live than non-retarded people," but I wanted to be absolutely certain that this is what you meant.

So, yes or no, do retarded people have the same right to life as non-retarded people?

	02-04-2002 03:36									#192
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Loin you aren't a host to your body parts.

My body parts cannot survive separate from me, just like the zygote and embryo cannot survive separate from a host mother.

quote: If a zygote is created by the exchange of DNA from 2 seperate organisms, and no other body part is I would be hesitant to call it a body part. As this doesn't fit the pattern.

At the same time, if a "separate organism" behaves in all ways like an integrated body part, then I would hesitate to call it a separate organism and would instead call it a body part.

	02-04-2002 03:39									#193
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You said that "if we took the risk of allowing incested children to be born, this world would soon become full of retarded people!" I would interpret this to mean that "retarded people have less of a right to live than non-retarded people," but I wanted to be absolutely certain that this is what you meant. So, yes or no, do retarded people have the same right to life as non-retarded people?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud I for one would say yes. With reservations. A retarded person *can sometimes* accomplish things. But I would support abortion in that case if the mother had a 50-60% chance that the child would be retarded. For life would be horrid for both

I'm sticking with DarkCloud's opinion on this matter.

	02-04-2002 03:41									#194
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger My body parts cannot survive separate from me, just like the zygote and embryo cannot survive separate from a host mother.

Just for my own understanding, you do realize the biological differences between your appendix and an embryo, right?

	02-04-2002 03:41									#195
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger My body parts cannot survive separate from me, just like the zygote and embryo cannot survive separate from a host mother.

That's irrelevant to being classified as a host, if the mother is a host than the embryo is a parasite, thus a seperate creature.

quote: At the same time, if a "separate organism" behaves in all ways like an integrated body part, then I would hesitate to call it a separate organism and would instead call it a body part.

The seperate organism does not behave like other body parts.

For one it's DNA is totaly different.
Second this "body part" is developing it's own body parts. My kidney does not do this.

	02-04-2002 03:43									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I'm sticking with DarkCloud's opinion on this matter.

Then I would urge both you and DarkCloud to reconsider the matter.

	02-04-2002 03:43									#197
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Just for my own understanding, you do realize the biological differences between your appendix and an embryo, right?

Oh sure. I've got an appendix, but I don't have an embryo.

	02-04-2002 03:46									#198
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Oh sure. I've got an appendix, but I don't have an embryo.

That's good to know.

	02-04-2002 03:50									#199
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam That's irrelevant to being classified as a host, if the mother is a host than the embryo is a parasite, thus a seperate creature.

Alright, then I'll revise the statement to "My body parts cannot survive separate from me, just like the zygote and embryo cannot survive separate from a body."

quote: Second this "body part" is developing it's own body parts. My kidney does not do this.

At least, you hope it doesn't.

The embryo does behave differently from other body parts, as it is one of the few body parts solely devoted to procreation (the sperm and egg cells being the other body parts) and it is the only body part with non-native DNA. Unusual, yes, but that is hardly unexpected given that the embryo is such a specialized body part.

	02-04-2002 03:55									#200
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Then I would urge both you and DarkCloud to reconsider the matter.

y?

	02-04-2002 04:00									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 y?

By mandating the murder of an entire class of humans you have started down a very slippery slope. Be absolutely certain that you know what you're doing before you throw your hat into that ring.

	02-04-2002 04:01									#202
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Loin if the body part does not have your DNA, it is NOT YOUR body part.

If the embryo is not the mothers body part, than it must be it's own.

If this body part belongs to me it must be doing something for me. The sperm does something for me, it gives a vehicle for my DNA to be spread.

The egg does something for the women, it gives a vehicle for her DNA to be spread.

The zygote is the creation to this, and is no longer hers, nor mine, but a combination of the two, to create a single whole.

At every stage in our lives we require outside energy to continue to grow. An embryo needs a uterus lining, I (in my adult stage) need food. Just because the embryo needs to live in a body, does not remove it's individuality.

	02-04-2002 04:04									#203
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger By mandating the murder of an entire class of humans you have started down a very slippery slope. Be absolutely certain that you know what you're doing before you throw your hat into that ring.

WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!! LOINBURGER JUST ADMITTED THAT ABORTION IS MURDER!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!! AH HA HA HA HA HA!!!

	02-04-2002 04:05									#204
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Loin if the body part does not have your DNA, it is NOT YOUR body part.

Sperm and egg cells have different DNA from the rest of your body. Body parts specifically designed for procreation apparently do not fit your (otherwise accurate) generalization.

quote: If this body part belongs to me it must be doing something for me. The sperm does something for me, it gives a vehicle for my DNA to be spread. The egg does something for the women, it gives a vehicle for her DNA to be spread.

The zygote and embryo do something for the woman, it gives her a vehicle for procreation; for her DNA to be spread (along with the DNA of her partner). However, seeing as how procreation is not always in the woman's best interests, it is sometimes necessary to cut the process short.

	02-04-2002 04:07									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!! LOINBURGER JUST ADMITTED THAT ABORTION IS MURDER!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!! AH HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Don't be an ass, I'm not the one who considers abortion to be murder. However, since you consider abortion to be murder, you must be very careful before you mandate the murder of an entire class of humans.

	02-04-2002 04:11									#206
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Don't be an ass, I'm not the one who considers abortion to be murder. However, since you consider abortion to be murder, you must be very careful before you mandate the murder of an entire class of humans.

I don't understand why you even care, loin. You're suppose to be FOR abortion anyway. By caring about whether or not incested babies should be aborted you sound like you're speaking AGAINST abortion. Not that I really mind.

	02-04-2002 04:18									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I don't understand why you even care, loin. You're suppose to be FOR abortion anyway. By caring about whether or not incested babies should be aborted you sound like you're speaking AGAINST abortion. Not that I really mind.

I'm speaking in favor of consistency. I consistently believe that abortion of an embryo is fine and dandy since an embryo is not a human.

You, on the other hand, believe that abortion of an embryo is murder, but that it's okay to abort (i.e. murder) an embryo that resulted from an incestuous relationship, since the embryo might develop into a retarded child and that retarded children have less of a right to live than non-retarded children.

It is the last of your beliefs given above, the belief that retarded people have less of a right to live than non-retarded people, that I find to be, unequivocally, morally repugnant. It is this belief of yours that I hope that you reconsider and revise. Whether you believe abortion to be right or wrong is of little concern to your everyday life, but whether you consider an entire class of humans to be inherently inferior is of great concern in your everyday life.

	02-04-2002 04:58									#208
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I'll get back to you on that, loinburger.

	02-04-2002 05:57									#209
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Sperm and egg cells have different DNA from the rest of your body. Body parts specifically designed for procreation apparently do not fit your (otherwise accurate) generalization. The zygote and embryo do something for the woman, it gives her a vehicle for procreation; for her DNA to be spread (along with the DNA of her partner). However, seeing as how procreation is not always in the woman's best interests, it is sometimes necessary to cut the process short.

Loin.. by the time the zygote is created the womens DNA is already spread. The rest of the stages are for the embryos development.

I have found a picture online showing the human life cycle.

	02-04-2002 06:01									#210
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The haploid stage is when the sperm cell and egg cell have half the parents chromosones... (so in a way you were right that the egg cell, and sperm cell has different DNA... it has half of the original, athough this still is your own DNA)

The point when the sperm and egg fuse, a whole (read complete dipoloid stage) new DNA is created. This cell is not the same as the mothers, and it is not even a haploid cell of the mothers. It is a diploid cell of something different.