29-03-2002 02:00									#1
	Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? Tired of ads?

Do you favor abortion?

Do you favor the death penalty?

If you answered no to both of the questions above you are Pro-Life. If you answered yes to both of the questions, you are Pro-Choice. If you answered yes to one and no to the other you are somewhere in between.

I answered no to both. Reasons being. . .

REASONS I AM AGAINST ABORTION
1. Abortion simply put, is murder.
2. Just because a fetus is not completely formed yet doesn't mean it is not human, and therefore it is murder to abort the baby.
3. Just because a fetus is still in it's mother's womb doesn't mean it cannot be put in pain. It is still a living thing.
4. Only God has the right to take a life. Not a mother.
5. Abortion is against my religious beliefs.

REASONS I AM AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY
1. Violence cannot be solved with more violence.
2. Killing the guilty never brings closure to the victims. You can't take back what's already been done.
3. No one wants to spend the rest of their life in prison, and that is by far a worser punishment than death. Death is the easy way out.
4. To say that a dangerous criminal in prison is an escape risk and a danger to society is unreasonable. Escapes are rare.
5. Too many pyschotic and mentally retarded people are executed each year, and should never have been executed anyway.
6. It's a shame when a person is wrongfully convicted and dies for crimes he/she did not commit.

Now it's your turn to voice your opinion. Remember to be honest with yourself.

	29-03-2002 02:06									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You're comparing apples and oranges with abortion and the DP - now stop trolling

	29-03-2002 02:08									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am against Abortion since I think it is wrong. I am also for the death penalty. Infact both don't have anything to do with each other.

	29-03-2002 02:27									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I too am sceptical of connecting the two in any way. The Death Penalty is an exceedingly simple issue, where moral and legal oughts are inescapably connected and which is almost apolitical in that it's all about your ethical choices and not about power relations. My personal system of ethics considers it wrong.

Abortion, on the other hand, is nowhere near as simple. Consider the fact that the pro-life/pro-choice divide coincides in America almost exactly with the left/right one and the only sensible conclusion to draw is that the issue is really not about "choice" and "life" at all. Though they're both well justified arguments within their respective discourses, they don't really reflect what politics is all about, ie. power relations. From a power-relative perspective quite obviously the right (as it always does) is trying to decrease the power of a weaker group (here women).

	29-03-2002 02:30									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think David is right it's a TROLL!!

	29-03-2002 02:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I am against Abortion since I think it is wrong. I am also for the death penalty. Infact both don't have anything to do with each other.

I disagree entirely with Gianny, except for the last sentence.

	29-03-2002 02:40									#7
	pro-choice because.... Full PM-box? Change here!

It is ultimately an issue of public health and women's health. To deny choice is to deny a woman not only control of her body, but control of her MIND in making important decisions about her health, sexual or otherwise. Also, if abortions were made illegal, the US would probably be facing a public health nightmare that would rival the polio epidemic, especially with prevailing attitudes about sexual health.

Dave

	29-03-2002 02:43									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

For abortion, I generally think pro-choice, although I don't think men should have any say in the matter, so I try to ignore that issue.

For the death penalty, I think it depends on the situation. Sometimes it's appropriate, but sometimes not.

Hmm... the poll looks fairly evenly divided...(3,3,3,0)

	29-03-2002 02:43									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm for abortion. But with restrictions. first timester only except maybe in the case of rape and/or sexual abuse.

'nuff said. I don't like engaging in these debates. many people are very fanatical about this issue.

and the death penalty is another thread entirely. many already know where I stand on this issue.

	29-03-2002 02:43									#10
	Got spare money?

"Consider the fact that the pro-life/pro-choice divide coincides in America almost exactly with the left/right one"

This is not the case.

	29-03-2002 02:49									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: From a power-relative perspective quite obviously the right (as it always does) is trying to decrease the power of a weaker group (here women).

And what about the womyn who are part of the right, oh simplfying one?

	29-03-2002 02:52									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

women aren't the weaker group BTW. They influence most new laws that are made.

	29-03-2002 03:11									#13
	Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 (..)REASONS I AM AGAINST ABORTION 1. Abortion simply put, is murder. 2. Just because a fetus is not completely formed yet doesn't mean it is not human, and therefore it is murder to abort the baby. 3. Just because a fetus is still in it's mother's womb doesn't mean it cannot be put in pain. It is still a living thing. 4. Only God has the right to take a life. Not a mother. 5. Abortion is against my religious beliefs.(..)

1 - If abortion is a murder, what about masturbation? Every time man masturbates,
he kills something like 1 500 000 poor souls. Human is not rated to human by his age,
but by his deeds and works.

2 - Check above.

3 - It'll be killed painlessly. On the other hand, those poor sperm
(term is used, altough it's not specific, because I cannot remember the correct english term).
will usually be left alive, to die painly. Think about the poor sperm!

4 - Hypocricy? USA? Hypocricy? USA? Hypocricy?

5 - Religious? You mean that way over 2000 year old-book which is full of way-
old ideologies, and have been manipulated dear-god-how-many-times?

In parts 1, 2 and 3 I was completely serious. After you laugh your mass off,
please show me the parts I'm wrong on those, and please, say why I'm on the
wrong track.

Parts 4 and 5 were partly flame and should be ignored.

	29-03-2002 03:21									#14
	Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 (..)1. Violence cannot be solved with more violence. 2. Killing the guilty never brings closure to the victims. You can't take back what's already been done. 3. No one wants to spend the rest of their life in prison, and that is by far a worser punishment than death. Death is the easy way out. 4. To say that a dangerous criminal in prison is an escape risk and a danger to society is unreasonable. Escapes are rare. 5. Too many pyschotic and mentally retarded people are executed each year, and should never have been executed anyway. 6. It's a shame when a person is wrongfully convicted and dies for crimes he/she did not commit.(..)

1 - "Yes it can!" -Ariel Sharon (he has never said so, but you get the idea)
2 - Umm, yeah.
3 - For some, yep.
4 - Sometimes, people consider also killing people because watching prisoners
will cost money. Of course, prisoners will always stay in prison if prison-system
will consentrate to punish the criminal, instead of helping him to avoid crimes.
5 - If I could decide, Mentally unclear people should be executed. :doitnow:
But it would risk many lives, because mental-illness is often possible to cure.
6 - Yeah right

	29-03-2002 03:32									#15
	Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Do you favor abortion?

No.

quote: Do you favor the death penalty?

Yes.

Which do you want to debate? I'm good to go on either topic.

	29-03-2002 03:34									#16
	Got spare money?

I fail to see how "In favor of the Death Penalty" equates with "Pro-Choice." What choice are we talking about?

That being said, I'm "somewhere in between" because I'm undecided on both issues; I'm more-or-less in favor of both abortion and the death penalty, but my mind is only 80% made up WRT abortion and 40% made up WRT the death penalty.

	29-03-2002 03:37									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by loinburger I fail to see how "In favor of the Death Penalty" equates with "Pro-Choice." What choice are we talking about?

It is to kill or not to kill. That is the choice.

	29-03-2002 03:41									#18
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It is to kill or not to kill. That is the choice.

Do you mean that being in favor of the Death Penalty is equivalent to being in favor of giving the State the choice to execute someone who is guilty, or do you mean something more flippant by that remark?

	29-03-2002 03:44									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by loinburger Do you mean that being in favor of the Death Penalty is equivalent to being in favor of giving the State the choice to execute someone who is guilty, or do you mean something more flippant by that remark?

It is being in favor or not in favor of giving the state the option to kill someone. That is the choice.

	29-03-2002 03:49									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

To those who accuse him of being a troll: Shut up. Cloud9 is simply expressing a humanistic view, and if it is something you disagree with, say you disagree with it. Don't accuse him of simply trying to incite you. To describe Pro-Life as requiring an anti-abortion and anti-death penalty stance is remarkably straight forward. Simply because the majority of Americans view the two issues as being seperate, does not mean that they are seperate. Someone who is truly pro-life is in favor of all life, not just the life that they find morally or financially convenient to maintain.

However, I would say that his description of pro-choice is a tad bit strange. Pro-choice rarely has much to do with the death penalty. I'd recommend changing the poll to reflect that. Possibly five options, pro-life, anti-abortion/pro-death penalty, pro-choice/anti-death penalty, pro-choice/pro-death penalty, and of course, banana, or some variant.

	29-03-2002 03:57									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Felch X To those who accuse him of being a troll: Shut up. Cloud9 is simply expressing a humanistic view, and if it is something you disagree with, say you disagree with it. Don't accuse him of simply trying to incite you. To describe Pro-Life as requiring an anti-abortion and anti-death penalty stance is remarkably straight forward. Simply because the majority of Americans view the two issues as being seperate, does not mean that they are seperate. Someone who is truly pro-life is in favor of all life, not just the life that they find morally or financially convenient to maintain.

Thanks Felch X.

	29-03-2002 03:58									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Felch X Someone who is truly pro-life is in favor of all life, not just the life that they find morally or financially convenient to maintain.

"Pro-life" is a problematic term in relation to the question on abortion. There is no question that executing a prisoner is an act of killing a human being, so it makes perfect sense for someone who is opposed to the death penalty to say that they are pro-life. However, the question with abortion is not whether it is right or wrong to kill a human being when it has not yet been born, the question is whether or not an embryo/fetus is actually a human being. Using the label "pro-life" pretty much begs the question.

	29-03-2002 04:03									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by loinburger However, the question with abortion is not whether it is right or wrong to kill a human being when it has not yet been born, the question is whether or not an embryo/fetus is actually a human being.

How in the heck could you say that loinburger?!?!?! Of course a fetus is a human being, or else it would be born as something else! Geesh!

	29-03-2002 04:06									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Life, according to the Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary is, "an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction." To define a fetus as not being alive you would have to say that it has no metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. While it can't sexually reproduce, its cells are reproducing, and everything else is true, so I think we can fairly describe a fetus as alive. Hence, pro-life is not begging any question. Opposition to abortion is the defence of life.

I wonder how you can define a fetus as non-human. The fetus is essentially just one of many stages in human life. The question of abortion is not whether the fetus is human, or whether it is alive, but if a mother is entitled to terminate a pregnancy. Let's try not to change the topic with non-scientific and dehumanizing arguments.

	29-03-2002 04:08									#25
	Got spare money?

The comparison between abortion and capital punishment is not a good one- abortion involves an innocent baby, capital punishment involves a convicted murderer.

	29-03-2002 04:09									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi . . .capital punishment involves a convicted murderer.

Not always.

	29-03-2002 04:17									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Not always.

Sure. There is always the possibility of treason.

	29-03-2002 04:20									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sure. There is always the possibility of treason.

Espionage is another possibility.

	29-03-2002 04:23									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Or attempted murder of the president

	29-03-2002 04:24									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Or attempted murder of the president

That has already been mentioned.