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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
O'yes, Stalin's excuse. Sure, Stalin only wanted to protect Leningrad. That's why he established a puppet goverment composed of Finnish communists who had moved to Russia. That's why Stalin planned occupation of Finland. And let's not forget the secret articles of Molotov-Ribbentrop plan. Stalin was just using the lame excuse of protecting Leningrad in an effort to make us a vassal state. |
Stefu,
(btw, you have nice Avatar, )
I don't wanted to defend Stalin. He was the total bastard, if not him, his purges in Red Army and his unwillingness to gave command of army to generals and his directives during WW2, then WW2 probably didn't happen or our country was not so much devastated.
But, I greatly disagreed about that he wanted to conquer Finland. All he wanted is to move frontier away from Leningrad. Before the the Winter war it was only 32 Km from Leningrad to frontier, after the war it was 270Km.
Would you deny that he offered to rent this land for 30 years or to exchange this border land for larger Soviet land, before he ordered to attack Finland?
He wanted to make peacefull exchange, your government refused. Again, of course you have right for this, but he believed that he must secure the Northern capital of SU by any means. And he used military force.
Did he want to conquer whole Finland?
No.
After Mannergheim line was brocken, it was not a very hard task.
(Please, take no offence I'm realise that you are very brave people who fough for your land, and I'm sure that you've fough for the last men standing, but do you think Finnland have chances to win war if it continued for year or two instead of 100 days. The SU had mach more resourses and manpower.)
The problem was that France was ready to send 150 000 troops of it's expedition force to attack North of SU. The Brits were ready to move their subs to Black sea. Further moving of red army deep in Finland would caused a declaration of war between GB, France and SU.
Stalin was a politician and he know this will happen, that's why he wanted to take those lands as quiet as possible. He ordered to use only troops of Leningrad's military district in this campaign, instead of launching a full scale war. Only when the first wave of red army was defeated, he start to realise his mistake and that Finnland is much harder task then he though and ordered to send reinforcements from other regions.
And again, I'm not defending Stalin, it's just my pov, based on book I've read about this historical period.
quote:
Incidentally, Finns quickly retook the areas lost in Winter War and pushed farther than that in Continuation War. Leningrad still stood. Fancy that. Mannerheim refused to actively participate in siege of Leningrad or to cut traffic connections to Murmansk. |
If Nazi started their ofence from frontier which was before 1939, then Leningrad probably felt. Their start their ofence in 270 km
away from Leningrad instead of 32Km, this gave time to create the defence. And btw, do you know how Leningrad's citzens survive the blokade of Leningrad? The heroism of it defenders and all citizens saved this city. Those people prefer to die because of hunger, but not to surrender to enemy.And majority of them died because of hunger.
Last edited by Serb on 06-04-2002 at 14:39
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:18
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"What a silly argument. It was a single
country back then."
It means that the country suffered overall,
but Russians were in better situation than citizens under German control, which were mostly non-Russian.
Anyway, it was a federation, right?
"It's the official stat of 50s when communist
were in charge. Stalin's stats has even a
fewer nombers because he was
responsible for huge casulties. Some later
stat (after collapse of SU) saying it was 50
millions of victims. "
There were theories about 5mln people in Auschwitz and no-one takes it serious now.
"So, you want to defend Hitler?
I guess not.You being Polish and I'm being
Russian both should be dead in accordance with Hitler's plans. "
Oj, I agree with You!
"You think Ukraine was not part of SU?
And look at map again, everything from
Moscow to Black Sea was conquered by
Hitler. It was the most populated and the
most industrialized part of the SU. Today
Siberia and city where I live for example, is
populated and industrialized only because
of a factories and people were evacuated
ere during WW2.nazi left our country laid in
ruins, the most terrible and fierce battles of
WW2 happen on our land. In Stalingrad big
city (by that times) remained less then 10 undestroyed houses.
Don't treat Russia as a sinonime for SU.
And of course, Russians suffered a lot.
But still, most of Russian Soviet Republic
wasn't under occupation, and as You noticed, the war even helped it - it industrialised it. I mean that your fate was better than the fate of other Slavic nations,
esp. Polish. But You are right, generally there's no reason for us to argue about that. So I'm ending this part.
Last edited by Heresson on 06-04-2002 at 15:29
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:18
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*empties a bottle of vodka in one turn*
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecthelion
*empties a bottle of vodka in one turn* |
Yeah it would be nice.
Damn, I jast can't do the same write now.
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Communism did not work because of a few reasons.
1. Dictator leadership. Absolute power corrupts. Stalin was worse than Hitler in terms of brutality towards peoples.
2. No reward for innovation. If you invent something in America, you patent it and become rich. In Communism, you don't. Where's the incentive to innovate?
3. No freedom. Believe or not, but freedom is the most important concept in the modern world. Freedom drives the US, and is the strongest incentive to fight oppression. Without freedoms, there is dissent.
4. No personal wealth. This goes back to the reward idea. In America, if you work, even a mediocre job, for 30 years, saving your money, you can retire and enjoy the wealth you have accumalated. In the Communist system, you work for 30-40 years and retire to nothing.
5. No possibility for change/reform. In the US, if the majority of the people don't like something about the government, they vote, and force change (i.e. John Locke). In the Communist system, the people have no voice.
I like you Uber, but Communism isn't the answer. I dislike greedy capitalist pigs, but Communism just doesn't work. Please accept this and back another horse.
Democracy and capitalism has its pitfalls, but it is the best system so far. Instead of supporting a system that has failed, why don't you work to reform Democracy to better the quality of life?
You might agree with some of the Green Party's ideas (Ralph Nader). The best one I've seen is a Stock Buying Tax. It works just like a sales tax. Every time a stock is bought, there is a small tax that goes into a fund. You could create free health care, free education, and many other programs with the amount of money generated.
Uber, as long as you support an unpopular system, your voice isn't going to be heard. People will tune you out, and you will become muted to the world.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:18
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Just one question: the united states skewed West German election results? Elaborate please, got any details?
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Stefu
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CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:18
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Da! Nyet! Trastuit, tavaritsh! That's about all of my skills in Russian language. 
quote:
But wasn't its territory used for an attack on the Soviet Union? |
Yes, during operation Barbarossa. Which Finland joined to get the areas it lost in Winter War. Main reason there were Germans in Lapland was that after Winter War, Finland was in dire straits, and Germans sold us food.
If Finland had managed to stay neutral, it's possible that Germans would have tried to invade us and use our land in attack against Soviet Union. Then again, it's a different question how successful they'd have been. Judging from the performance of German troops stationed in Lapland... 
quote:
But at what cost! Do you know how many people died there? |
Siege of Leningrad was indeed costy to Russia, but considering Finland didn't participate, it's not the issue here.
quote:
I am not aware of such details. |
http://www.mannerheim.fi/introt/introet.htm
[Mannerheim] was sufficiently broad-minded in regard to the affairs of the great powers, to refuse to actively participate in the siege of Leningrad and to cut trafic connections to Murmansk, but, on the other hand, to accept the German military assistance.
quote:
But anyway, weren't the Nazis granted a free pass through your territory to attack the USSR? |
In Lapland, yes, where they proceeded to show their utter lack of knowledge about winter warfare, not to mention their snappy yet chilly summer uniforms, but I'm not aware of there being many Germans elsewhere in Finland.
quote:
But, I greatly disagreed about that he wanted to conquer Finland. All he wanted is to move frontier away from Leningrad. |
Scheisse. People who only want securement of their borders don't give orders such as "stop when you reach Swedish border" and most certainly not create puppet governments ready to step in power once the capital is reached. That's exactly what Soviets did.
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Would you deny that he offered to rent this land for 30 years or to exchange this border land for larger Soviet land, before he ordered to attack Finland? |
I've not heard about this renting thing. However, he didn't only want the border land - he also wanted a naval base in southern Finnish city of Hanko, from where there would have only been a short trip to Helsinki, and several islands in Gulf of Finland that were seen essential to Finnish defence. The larger piece of land, counties of Repola and Porojärvi, were largely forest and Finland didn't have any special need to get those.
quote:
He wanted to make peacefull exchange, your government refused. |
Baltic states had already made similar arrangements, and look what happened to them.
quote:
Did he want to conquer whole Finland?
No. |
Yes. Terijoki government. Otto Wille Kuusinen. Marching guides to Finland. "First Finnish People's Army" (largely consisting of Russian soldiers, incidentally). Secret articles of Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. Molotov, IIRC, once said something in effect of it being lucky that Soviets didn't manage to conquer Finland, because the people were so tenacious.
quote:
If Nazi started their ofence from frontier which was before 1939, then Leningrad probably felt. |
What Nazis? Where? Only Nazis were in Lapland.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
etc. I understand most of the words,
and the others seem familiar to me too,
but I see no reason for them to be in the place.
I wonder, do You have in Russian ?
for example? |
Those text was on Russian, but was typed with latin letters. May be on Russian it will be more familiar.
Ñîþç íåðóøèìûé ðåñïóáëèê ñâîáîäíûõ,
(The unbreakable union of free republics)
Ñïëîòèëà íà âåêè âåëèêàÿ Ðóñü,
(was united by great Rus)
Äà çäðàâñòâóåò ñîçäàíûé âîëåé íàðîäîâ,
(Long live, the union created by will of nations-
Åäèíûé, ìîãó÷èé Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþç.
( the permanent and mighty Soviet Union)
etc.
It's my own very bad translation.
Our languges very familiar I can understand some Polish words too, and even whole sentences, but I've never study Polish.
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06-04-2002 14:17
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hotya nashi yaziki i pohozhie.
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