12-04-2002 13:27									#151
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It doesn't read the same, and it was a long, long time ago. I think I remember less than ten Russian words and only a couple of phrases, like:

Ya gavaru pa ruski

Ya ni znaiu

Moi ruski ploxha.

And that's about it.

	12-04-2002 14:34									#152
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That gives you a C-

	12-04-2002 14:35									#153
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Rus Kijowska? I co z tego? O to wlasnie mi chodzilo; to jest rownie idiotyczne jak twierdzenie ze Litwini sa czescia naszego narodu; p0rzeciez mysmy zyli w jednym kraju tez; i z Ukraińcami, i z Białorusinami zreszta. A jesli chodzi o rozumienie przez Ciebie jezyka białoruskiego, to był on przed wojna znacznie bardziej poslsko-podobny. Za ZSSR dokonano kilku reform jezykowych ktore zblizyly ten jezyk do rosyjskiego.

Co z tego, co z tego,
a to z togo co belorusy, ukrainci i russki tri bratskih, slavyanskih naroda s obshimi istoricheskimi kornyami. I ne kakoe eto ne "idiotyczne jak twierdzenie" a istoricheskaya pravda.
You might deny this and beleive in what you want, but it's true.
If you think that Belorussians are more tied with Poland then with Russia, then why it calls Belo-russia not Belo-poland or something.
And I don't understand the subject of this debate. Do you realy think that Ukranians and Belorussians are ethnic groops of Poland? They are different groops of slavs, different Slav's peoples.
As for languages, I don't know nothing about reform you spoked about. The Russian language was the official language of the Soviet Union and I don't see any need for Russians to reform Belorussian language to make it more close to Russian. What for Soviets needed this? I don't understand this. In every republic of SU people freely spoke on Russian language, you may ask Saras about this.
Btw, my far, far ancestors lived in Belorussia.

	12-04-2002 17:47									#154
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Serb Btw, my far, far ancestors lived in Belorussia.

That means you're almost Lithuanian Laba diena

	12-04-2002 18:00									#155
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Saras That means you're almost Lithuanian Laba diena

Good joke.
I'm Russian 100%.

Moy pra-pra-pra- hren ego znayet skolko 'pra' dedushka po papinoi linii zhyl v Belorusii nu i vozmozhno sam byl belorusom. Koroche govoya hren ego znayet v kakie vremena moi predki po papinoi linii pereselilis v sibir.
I gde ty videl pribalta s familiey Belov?

	12-04-2002 20:37									#156
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Familii Belov nevidel, no videl familiju Belovas

	12-04-2002 21:37									#157
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you think that Belorussians are more tied with Poland then with Russia, then why it calls Belo-russia not Belo-poland or something.

In fact catholic Byelorussians were called Białopolacy

And hell I never claimed Byelorussians or Ukrainians are Poles.
I claim they are as far to Poland as to Russia.

My grandpa taught children Polish in Polesie region, Byelorussia.
Except for that, the name I bare not Heresson, nevermind what,
I read it is a name of old Lithuanian faudal family (earlier it was Mintwit oslt). My family lived somewhere completely different, though. My second name, Olgierd, is Lithuanian.
On the other hand, name of my grandpa is a name of old Ukrainian feudal family. And it may be true, as my grandpa comes of there and I was said he indeed was some aristocrate, but He was, at least in some part, Armenian too.

	12-04-2002 22:03									#158
	Put an end to popups!

Olgierd is a bastardised Algirdas. Please keep things authentic

	03-05-2002 04:26									#159
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OK I will

	03-05-2002 05:52									#160
	Put an end to popups!

The only way I could foresee the SU lasting untill today is one of the following:

1. Stalin never existing.
2. Gorbachev allowed to mold Russia as he wanted to, and easing the suffering of the people.
3. Making an ally of the United States

Which, considering the tendency of the USA to do whatever is in the USA's best interest regardless, easier done than said. Generous oil agreements here, less espionage there, Being open with their scientific research (especially mir) (at least as open as the US was with the UK), not making frivolous hostile moves (Cuba), etc. I could have forged an alliance easily, had I been in power.

	03-05-2002 05:57									#161
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Except that the US would stillwant to destroy you. You think the USSR wasn't always trying to get friends in the West? Every attempt was labled Soviet duplicity. When the Soviets stuck to their international agreements, it was seen as proof of their deviousness. The threat of the USSR was in its very existence, not in anything it said or did. It proved that capitalism had an alternative, and for that, the West had to destroy it.

	03-05-2002 06:02									#162
	Remove this text

in a twistedly peverse interperation of Marxist / Socialistic writings, America saw the "world wide revolution" of the working class as a "world wide domination" of a tolitarian state...

	03-05-2002 06:15									#163
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It suited the interests of the ruling class to disseminate that interpretation. It helped to discredit the revolution and preserve their power.

	03-05-2002 06:15									#164
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: in a twistedly peverse interperation of Marxist / Socialistic writings, America saw the "world wide revolution" of the working class as a "world wide domination" of a tolitarian state...

Which, history has shown, it was

	03-05-2002 06:23									#165
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It proved that capitalism had an alternative, and for that, the West had to destroy it.

If we had merely wanted to discredit the USSR before the "exploited" masses, we didn't have to do much more than shine a light on thier Stalinist tendencies.

I must say that it is suprising to see a pricipled pinko such as yourself defend the USSR given thier history of treating thier own people (genocide, etc.).

	03-05-2002 06:27									#166
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, but it was the Stalinists themselves who did that, isn't it. It was Kruschev, not the US, who pointed out what happened there.

And David, there was no "world wide domination." Even within the Soviet sphere, Eastern Europe had rather more leeway than your average Central American banana republic. Then consider that aside from the Warsaw pact countries, few of the socialist states got along particularly well. Maybe if they had, they'd still be around.

	03-05-2002 06:30									#167
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And David, there was no "world wide domination." Even within the Soviet sphere, Eastern Europe had rather more leeway than your average Central American banana republic.

I'm pretty sure there are members of the Solidarity movement that would disagree.

	03-05-2002 06:34									#168
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I must say that it is suprising to see a pricipled pinko such as yourself defend the USSR given thier history of treating thier own people (genocide, etc.).

I defend what was good about them and excoriate what was wrong (reality is rarely one-sided). I also point out that a lot of their problems were caused by the West's hostility. Stalin wasn't murderous because he could be. He was murderous because he had to be, given his concrete situation (i.e., a bureaucratic dicatorship with hostile classes internatally--the Kulaks--and a hostile world without . . . and because he was rather a mundane intellect incapable of solving the problems by other means). Which isn't to justify what he did.

	03-05-2002 06:40									#169
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm pretty sure there are members of the Solidarity movement that would disagree.

Perhaps, but how many member of Solidarity were killed by their own government? How many members of opposition groups in say . . . El Salvador were killed in the same period? I'd much rather have been a member of Solidarity than an oppostion member in any of the CA republics (except Nicaragua and Costa Rica).

A lot of hoopla was made about the preist who was killed by the police in Poland. For the same amount of press coverage, over four hundred priests would have had to have died in Guatemala (and while no where near that many were killed, quite a few were). And the police who killed that priest were immediately arrested, tried, and found guilty, unlike the murders of preists in Central American (I believe some were finally brought to justice in El Salvador).

Fun fact: when Solidarity started out, it was a socialist union group. One of its demands was to build a democratic socialism. Unfortunately, the Pope and the CIA got their claws on the movement and were able to replace the socialist leaders with Lek Walesa.

	03-05-2002 06:53									#170
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Stalin wasn't murderous because he could be. He was murderous because he had to be, given his concrete situation

What were his depredations in the Ukraine caused by?

	03-05-2002 06:59									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The need to bring the kulaks under control before they were able to overthrow the Soviet state. Trotsky had also recognized this problem that they represented, and also had a plan for dealing with them . . . by giving them posetive incentives to create collective farms, etc. It would have been more gentle and taken longer, and it certainly wouldn't have killed anyone. Stalin took part of the plan (never one to do his own thinking), and got rid of the incentives and shrank the time down into five years.

	03-05-2002 07:09									#172
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The need to bring the kulaks under control before they were able to overthrow the Soviet state. Trotsky had also recognized this problem that they represented, and also had a plan for dealing with them . . . by giving them posetive incentives to create collective farms, etc. It would have been more gentle and taken longer, and it certainly wouldn't have killed anyone.

Are we talking about the same Lenin that signed an order to murder at least 100 kulaks and confiscate thier grain in order to set the proper example? He even closed the letter with this phrase: "let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks."

	03-05-2002 07:12									#173
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I wasn't talking about Lenin at all.

That's from the Pipes book, The Unknown Lenin, yes? Haven't read it, can't really copmment on it. If I guessed I would say he was refering to grain hoarders during the civil war. But it's just a guess.

	03-05-2002 07:20									#174
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wasn't talking about Lenin at all.

You said Trotsky, I jumped to the conclusion that he must have been involved with Lenin's decisions regarding the disposition of the Kulaks.

quote: If I guessed I would say he was refering to grain hoarders during the civil war. But it's just a guess.

Here's the text of the order:

quote: 11-8-18 Send to Penza To Comrades Kuraev, Bosh, Minkin and other Penza communists Comrades! The revolt by the five kulak volost's must be suppressed without mercy. The interest of the entire revolution demands this, because we have now before us our final decisive battle "with the kulaks." We need to set an example. 1) You need to hang (hang without fail, so that the public sees) at least 100 notorious kulaks, the rich, and the bloodsuckers. 2) Publish their names. 3) Take away all of their grain. 4) Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's telegram. This needs to be accomplished in such a way, that people for hundreds of miles around will see, tremble, know and scream out: let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks. Telegraph us acknowledging receipt and execution of this. Yours, Lenin P.S. Use your toughest people for this.

	03-05-2002 07:25									#175
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't think I can defend that.

Trotsky's plan came much later, during the final faction fight between the worker faction (led by Trotsky), the peasant faction (led by Bukharin), and the bureaucratic faction, (led by Stalin). Seeing Trtosky's plan as a threat politicaly, the peasants and the bureaucrats allied, crushed the workers faction, then the bureaucrats turned on the peasants.

	03-05-2002 07:27									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Which, IMO, is the end result of any communism attempt, because of human nature. Communism is against human nature, in general, and doomed to fail. IMO of course

	03-05-2002 07:32									#177
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Any civilization is against human's nature.
Religion, monogamism, animal rights and all this stuff is against human's nature. But we, humans, can model our it.

	03-05-2002 07:33									#178
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Human nature isn't anything but what we make of it.

	03-05-2002 07:33									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How is religion against human nature? And love is a part of human nature, I think, therefore monogamy is OK...communism is against human nature because it involves losing your property.

	03-05-2002 07:37									#180
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Property is only as old as agriculture. Universal property is only a few hundred years old.

Communism is more natural, therefore, since it returns humans to the state of common property. In fact, the first type of economic state (not governmental state) of humans is known as primative communism.