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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Timexwatch
Since I'm too lazy to comment on the first page, I'll just point out a few things:
Che:
The French never really stopped ruling Vietnam. The Japanese basically let the French continue running the place. Uncle Ho was not a fan of that decision |
Following the collapse of the Japanese, the Vietnamese set up their own government. Had the US decided to support it, it would have saved but us and the French, not to mention the Vietnamese, thirty years of war to liberate and unite their country.
quote:
What we do know is that once the U.S. dropped the bombs on Japan, Russia declared war appx. two days later. Their invasion of Manchuria was speed up by three weeks, indicating that they certainly feared an immediate surrender by Japan and wanted to gain some quick territory. Even the flight of the Enola Gay to Britan sent rumbling through the Soviet leadership. |
That's a little bit of a myth on our part to make the USSR seem opportunist. The truth is, they declared war on Japan they day they had promised to declare war on Japan at Yalta.
quote:
The Russians were no more entitled to northern Persia the the Kurils (I belive that was the island chain they invaded). This by no means excuses the Brits, though... |
I am not arguing that they were. The point is that the US threatened to nuke the USSR if they didn't leave. No such threat was made to the Brit's, and seven years later, when the Shah was overthrown, despite the opinion everyone may have had of him (according to steelhc), the US invaded and put him back in power (Norm Schwatzkopf's dad was in charge of that operation).
quote:
What do you think Secretary of State Byrnes meant in the U.N. when he told the Soviet ambassador "Get out of Iran or we'll give it to you with both barrells!" (IIRC) |
Exactly.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
But being opportunistic is not necessarily bad for countries.
And, what country is NOT opportunistic in advancing their own interests?? |
Well, it's always opposed to us noble and virtuous Americans, who were only interested in liberating people and spreading freedom.
Ecthelion, in 1947, the Communist Party, the guys who had liberated Northern Italy from the Nazis and executed Mussolini  , were expected to sweep the elections. The US started a campaign here in the US, having Italian-Americans write to family in Italy telling them that if the Communists won, they wouldn't be allowed to send money home. They hired the Mafia to committ election fraud and intimidation. The US state department declared that the US would cut off aid. They initiated a massive propaganda campaign to scare Italians away from voting for the Communists. The state department said that Italians known to have voted for communists would not be allowed into the country. The CIA contributed a million dollars to centrist parties (in 1948, a king's ransom in Italy). And lots, lots more.
In France, basically the Communists were very important in the Marseille docks, and the CIA hired the Coriscan mob to break them.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 06-04-2002 at 23:55
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Luk
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Wroclaw, Lower Silesia, Poland
Mar 1999
time: 06:18
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Im Pole, and Im pissed off that Russians did enslaved us for over 50 years!
This enslavment was most horrible for us from all Slav Nations because we always felt to Russian despise and superiority in almost every single sphere... Specially cultural and civilization. Even in 45-89 years Russians always disliked us because we felt that we are better and we never ever hidden it.
We are gulity that we let Russian underintelligent, militaristic civilization to grow, it is all because We Poles in XVII century belived we are the best in the World... And it lost us... I say sorry to all civilized World that we didnt colonized Russians and let them to grow.
Im sorry one more time
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steelehc
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Alaska
Dec 2001
time: 20:18
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To the Finns: Your small nation fought very heroically, after the USSR demanded the fronteir be pushed back some 200km, and rights to a couple bases on Finnish soil. I think it is a travesty that some of that territory remains part of Russia. However, you must remember that the Russians have a point. Finland was aligned with the Nazis, to such an extent that there was a Waffen SS division composed entirely of Finns.
Serb: When I said that roughly 30% of Russian war material came from Lend-Lease, I was giving you a very accurate figure. That includes weapons designed in the US or UK, which made up the majority of Lend-Lease aid. Only 6% or 7% was actually built in the US.
I am mistaken. The US apparently did threaten to nuke the USSR over Persia. Not over Eastern Europe, however, which is what this discussion was about (after it was about economic success).
My ratings? Impossible to determine with such precision. If I had to guess...
USSR-45%
US-40%
UK-15%
The allies would likely not have been victorious without any of these three, or if they had, it would have been longer and far more costly then it was.
Serb: I resent your comments about what WW2 was like for Russians. One of my grandparents was a German Jew. He was sent to Auschwitz (I think) in 1942. I understand what happened in Poland, Russia, and the rest of Eastern Europe very well, probably better then most, and I can say that you had it very well compared to the Poles, as horrible as that sounds. In any case, WW2 was horrible for many millions of people, and we should all be thankful it wasn't any worse.
Steele
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ALL HAIL THE FORESKIN
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:18
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Economical alliance with USSR wasn't at all benefitable for Poland, Vagabond.
There was one joke. It was sth like this;
-what do You call economical partnership with USSR?
-we give them iron and pay for that with coal
It's not funny, but get the point;
during the war, USSR ripped polish lands of
all artwork and industrial machines they could
get, and after the war we had to send to USSR coal in the before-the-war-prices,
which obviously was very very very profitable for USSR.
There is a joke;
-if You are lost in a forest, how do You know where is east and where is west?
-I'm walking forward up to the nearest railtrack. If there are wagons fool of coal,
they are heading east. If the wagons are empty, they are heading west.
There is one more;
1st may, workers' defilade.
Drunk man gets to the microphone and shouts through it; Long live our dear dear
rail-workers! on and on.
And when someone points him out,
that rail workers will be next, and now
miners are marching, he says;
Yes! I'm a miner too, but if not my dear
rail workers, I'd have to carry the coal myself on my back to our neighbour in need
in the west...
These aren't good jokes, and I'm not sure if You'll understand them, but who cares...
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Luk
We are gulity that we let Russian underintelligent, militaristic civilization to grow, it is all because We Poles in XVII century belived we are the best in the World... And it lost us... I say sorry to all civilized World that we didnt colonized Russians and let them to grow.
Im sorry one more time |
I'm bet you are still believe that you are the best of the best.
Keep your apologizes for yourself. Yes, you made an attemp to enslave us in the beggining of XVII and were almost succesfull . We kiked your asses sooooooo hard and already in XVIII Poland was a province of Russian Empire. So, don't play a saint or victim here you tried to conquer us (your last attempt was in 1919-1921, but we've returned what you took in 1939), you are no less conquers then we are. With only difference that you are less lucky (you fought with wrong enemies) and less skillfull conquers.
So stop crying, you let us to grow,  Who do you think you are?
P.S. If you are gone make one more attempt in the future (which is unlikely, but only hypoteticaly if...) then I should warn you- We have a lot of Ivan Susanins waiting to guide a mighty Polish army in nearest forest.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by steelehc
Serb: When I said that roughly 30% of Russian war material came from Lend-Lease, I was giving you a very accurate figure. That includes weapons designed in the US or UK, which made up the majority of Lend-Lease aid. Only 6% or 7% was actually built in the US. |
You said once that you was trained to sink Soviet ships, it means that you have connection to Navy, right?
If it's true, then ask one question.
The only connection between SU and USA/GB was a Nothern route, wich was patroled by German fleet.
How can you claim that 30% of Soviet raw material came from Lend-Lease. For such amount of cargo you've need many times more ships then you used for transportation of your invasion forces in 1944. As far as I remember there was less then 200 convoys during war, some of them were sinked by German submarines.
Repeat, we apriciate for your help, especialy in first year of war, but saying that 1/3 of Soviet raw materials, weapons, ammunition, boots, radio stations etc. ( 1/3 of all resources spent in this war by us) has come from Lend Lease is NONSENCE.
7-8%, MAXIMUM.
Last edited by Serb on 09-04-2002 at 10:36
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steelehc
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Alaska
Dec 2001
time: 20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
You said once that you was trained to sink Soviet ships, it means that you have connection to Navy, right? |
Yes, glad you remembered. US Navy.
quote:
If it's true, then ask one question.
The only connection between SU and USA/GB was a Nothern route, wich was patroled by German fleet.
How can you claim that 30% of Soviet raw material came from Lend-Lease. For such amount of cargo you've need many times more ships then you used for transportation of your invasion forces in 1944. As far as I remember there was less then 200 convoys during war, some of them were sinked by German submarines.
Repeat, we apriciate for your help, especialy in first year of war, but saying that 1/3 of Soviet raw materials, weapons, ammunition, boots, radio stations etc. ( 1/3 of all resources spent in this war by us) has come from Lend Lease is NONSENCE.
7-8%, MAXIMUM. |
There were other connections between the US and the USSR. There was the southern route, from India and Australia, and the Alaskan route, through Alaska. In fact, over 15,000 airplanes came through Fairbanks, Alaska, where I grew up.
And let me restate. 7-8% of war material was built in the US. Roughly 21% was designed in the US, but actually built in the USSR. The designs, schematics, etc... were sent over. This includes everything from planes to guns to rockets to refrigerators to ammunition. In this 30%, things not made in the US were designed there or in the UK.
I hope this explains the issue.
Steele
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
There were other connections between the US and the USSR. There was the southern route, from India and Australia, and the Alaskan route, through Alaska. In fact, over 15,000 airplanes came through Fairbanks, Alaska, where I grew up. |
Excuse me, may be I'm not understand something, but what route between India and Australia has common with route between USSR and USA?
Alaska? May be, I suppose all planes come frome this route, because there was no railroad connection between our Far East and our European part at that time. So, only planes could flew by this route, any other cargo couldn't be sent by this way because of lack of railroads.
So I'm still absolutely sure that Nothern route was the only efficient way wich connect our countries during war. And absolutely sure that majority of cargo was delivered by this route.
quote:
Originally posted by steelehc
And let me restate. 7-8% of war material was built in the US. Roughly 21% was designed in the US, but actually built in the USSR. The designs, schematics, etc... were sent over. This includes everything from planes to guns to rockets to refrigerators to ammunition. In this 30%, things not made in the US were designed there or in the UK.
I hope this explains the issue.
Steele |
No, it didn't.
It's just sounds like another round- 'Russians stole everything from west.'
Are you trying to convince me that US government shared technology with USSR during war?
Planes? Are you trying to say that on Soviet factories were constructed planes of an American design? There was no a single plane of US design constructed in SU during war. Not a single plane. We have a lot of exelent planes of our own design and there was no any need for construction of US designed planes on Soviet factories. And it was simply impossible. For construction of planes of foreign design you need- equipment of the same design, you need spare parts of the same design, you need foreign engineeres, you should know all technological process from beggining to the end. So, not a single plane of foreign design was constructed in SU during war, the same for anything else.
Soviet government indeed asked for examples of American jet planes, but all requests were denied.
Guns and rockets? Soviet union have much superior rocket technology before the war then US, I wounder if US have any example of such technology before the war. We have RS- "reaktivnie snaryady"- Air to Air missiles wich were succesfully used against Japanese in 1939. Even before the war we had the first mobile rocket launchers known as "Katusha" , not as prototypes by as fully artilery regiments. In 1941 we have hundreds of those Surface to Surface mobile rocket launchers, at the end of war we have tousands of them.
Refrigerators? I'm not sure what are you talking about.
Ammunition? American and soviet ammunition has different calibers. How Americans could have better desighned ammunition for soviet weapons then Soviets itself?
Sorry, but thing that "30% of Soviet technology comes from America" sounds even more nonsece for me then "30% of all raw materials."
Last edited by Serb on 09-04-2002 at 14:18
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06-04-2002 22:50
I don't think Stalin was a fool. I think he was a brialliant politician in some ways, and a supreme idiot in others (like not foreseeing the Nazi invasion). He was the supreme bureaucrat
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