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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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Property and a sense of ownership is, IMO, inherent in human nature. If someone comes up, hits you on the head with a rock, and steals your wheel. you're gonna be pissed. Why? Because it's yours.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
look at how many times democracy failed
it dose not mean that democracy is not worth while to work towards |
When did I voice support for democracy?
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Jon Miller
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yes, you have not
but it is usually included with the talk about property rights of individuals
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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No, democracies can be expected to have less property rights than a properly functioning republic - poor people will usually, hypocritically, seek to vote away the wealth of others. This is an example of greed, another part of human nature. It's hypocritical because the poor think the rich owe them something and not vice versa - ie they're stupid.
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Jon Miller
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the rich steal from the poortake the poors work and enslave them in return
not the other way arround
the rich
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
David please. Calling poor people greedy really makes you look like more of an idiot. |
Anyone who tries to force another to give their wealth to him is greedy, in my book.
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"The wealth of others" that you speak of was acquired by fleecing innocent people out of their money. |
Bullshit. The wage labor system is and has always been based on consent and voluntary contracts.
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While not all rich corporations are evil, most of them are. The oil companies engage in parallel pricing (not a monopoly, just all the oil buddies getting together and agreeing on charging higher prices... it must be great, not having to worry about demand). |
First off, that isn't exactly true, but even if it were, how is this wrong?
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Health care companies profit from disease. |
Also known as being employed to make sick people well. You don't like it, don't go to the doctor.
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The whole communications industry is just crap. I can't go on, the vein in my head is going to burst. |
Fine, don't buy a telephone, exert consumer pressure, or start your own company.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Anyone who tries to force another to give their wealth to him is greedy, in my book.
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Then by logic, you think capitalism is wrong because trade is giving wealth to someone for material things.
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Bullshit. The wage labor system is and has always been based on consent and voluntary contracts.
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Do you live in the Bizarro world? It has been based on the threat of being homeless and starving to death.
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First off, that isn't exactly true, but even if it were, how is this wrong?
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If you ever decide to pick up a newspaper, you would know that the Senate has been investigating the oil price gouging of the summer of 2001. By your definition, taking other people's wealth is greed, and greed is wrong.
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Also known as being employed to make sick people well. You don't like it, don't go to the doctor.
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Why do you think drug companies advertise on TV? You can't go to the store and just buy prescription drugs. Doctors know what medicines are right for you, the companies are making people pester doctors for certain medications. My mom has worked in the pharmaceutical industry for 25 years.
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Fine, don't buy a telephone, exert consumer pressure, or start your own company. |
That's the whole point David. Communication has become a necessity. Not just a luxury service. You can become a hermit, or be forced to pay the Comm industry who engages in the same parallel pricing as the oil companies. The whole Comm industry went to sh!t when the government broke up AT&T.
I'd much rather have a monopoly company who didn't need to worry about competition running things than a bunch of greedy unethical people who fleece America.
Eventually, the great corporate funded Democracy will fall. I just hope it happens in my lifetimes so I can point and laugh at all the contradictory, ignorant right wingers who don't see the system for what it is.
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Then by logic, you think capitalism is wrong because trade is giving wealth to someone for material things. |
Please pay attntion to the word "force" used by DF. Trade is voluntary, you know.
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Do you live in the Bizarro world? It has been based on the threat of being homeless and starving to death. |
Well, starvation and homelessness are natural phenomenon that are caused by anumber of factors. And arguments by Americans about threat of starvation are ridiculous - even in Lithuania with its USD 3000 / capita GDP no one really starves.
How your own leftwingers arrive at the US hunger statistics is completely strange to me. Perhaps your homeless are dietary freaks?
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If you ever decide to pick up a newspaper, you would know that the Senate has been investigating the oil price gouging of the summer of 2001. By your definition, taking other people's wealth is greed, and greed is wrong. |
Again, no one forces you to buy gas. And actually greed is good  . It makes things happen.
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Why do you think drug companies advertise on TV? You can't go to the store and just buy prescription drugs. Doctors know what medicines are right for you, the companies are making people pester doctors for certain medications. My mom has worked in the pharmaceutical industry for 25 years. |
I sit on a board of a pharmaceutical comany, so I also can claim some knowledge about the pharma industry - your arguments are bullshit, advertsing is just advertising, if you trust TV more than your doctor you should go and seea different doctor 
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That's the whole point David. Communication has become a necessity. Not just a luxury service. You can become a hermit, or be forced to pay the Comm industry who engages in the same parallel pricing as the oil companies. The whole Comm industry went to sh!t when the government broke up AT&T. |
Huh? Parralel pricing is possible only in the short term. Believe me, I've tried  After a while, some of the conspirators get greedy and cut prices just a little and then competition starts all over again.
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I'd much rather have a monopoly company who didn't need to worry about competition running things than a bunch of greedy unethical people who fleece America. |
I almost fainted.
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Eventually, the great corporate funded Democracy will fall. I just hope it happens in my lifetimes so I can point and laugh at all the contradictory, ignorant right wingers who don't see the system for what it is. |
As opposed to enlightened visionaries like you?
Last edited by Saras on 03-05-2002 at 12:58
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morb
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San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA
Nov 2001
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
V konec yanki zapizdelis. |
hahaha!
serb, you rule!
Last edited by morb on 05-05-2002 at 17:36
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Colwyn
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2000
time: 15:18
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"Of course not; the ones that make the resources available to them (brain, muscle & capital) work harder can afford better homes, more cars etc. Next, please "
- But at what expense to the planet and its people, communism bulding /socialist states did allow various rewards based on education/job/work ethic etc, the SU had a 13 month pay reward for hard working persons and saleries did range as much as X5, it just was defence costs that took some of these obtainable things away.
Not to say that we have reached a state of communism that I'm talking about, my main point is how much wealth can you ALLOW any one person(s) to reach. Give me a X's value you think is fair and you'd probably find we'll all agree.
Bill gates makes say $100,000 a day, does this mean he is working as much as 10,000 people, certainly not. But he is certainly taking it away from 10,000 people mostly mexicans who work 14 hrs days for $1 a hour.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
You can only have one winner unfortunetly the base principle of capitalism is profit and growth which is completely unsustainable. |
How is growth unsustainable  . And you can't have one winner, that is the genius of capitalism... you have people think they can be the one winner, but when you have many thinking this way, they ain't gonna reach the top.
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But at what expense to the planet and its people, communism bulding /socialist states did allow various rewards based on education/job/work ethic etc, the SU had a 13 month pay reward for hard working persons and saleries did range as much as X5, it just was defence costs that took some of these obtainable things away. |
I don't think the SU is a good example when you are decrying capitalism for what it has done to the planet and the people .
And the defense costs were also a drain to the US. Imagine how much more the US could have done without the large military budget! If every nation became a capitalist democracy, we wouldn't have the war and deaths that you say we wouldn't have under communism either .
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Not to say that we have reached a state of communism that I'm talking about, my main point is how much wealth can you ALLOW any one person(s) to reach. |
As much as that person can get  .
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Bill gates makes say $100,000 a day, does this mean he is working as much as 10,000 people, certainly not. |
The advances and prosperity and jobs he has brought is worth as much as $10,000 people's work.
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But he is certainly taking it away from 10,000 people mostly mexicans who work 14 hrs days for $1 a hour. |
 How do you figure this? A lot of mexicans don't work for Microsoft .
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LaRusso
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appendix of Europe
May 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
imagine playing a game of civ in which no AI wanted to talk / trade / anything with you, and you couldn't outright declare war and destroy them. |
unfortunately, the communist experiment did not take place in a test tube, but in a hostile environment that tried to destroy the soviet state for 70 years. as a consequence, it developed into a paranoid police-party structure. still, its overall impact was more postive than negative - it defeated hitler and it caused big capital worldwide to reexamine its position and treatment of the labor force.
one may wonder what SU would be like if it were not for the surrounding hostile environment, but if it were a really good idea, it should have overcome that difficulty. perhaps, next time, when germans or some other organized folks try developing communism, it may succeed.
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:18
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--“unfortunately, the communist experiment did not take place in a test tube, but in a hostile environment that tried to destroy the soviet state for 70 years.”
After the interventions in early 1920’s, what hostile environment are you talking about? If you look at trade figures, there were gadzilions of Western industrial equipment shipped in prewar USSR. There were Western engineers and supervisors at almost every major construction in USSR, so your argument is not 100% true.
--“as a consequence, it developed into a paranoid police-party structure.”
Not as a consequence. It is a defining trait of the Soviet system from the outset. Your view on USSR history is a bit (huge understatement) idealistic.
--“still, its overall impact was more postive than negative - it defeated hitler and it caused big capital worldwide to reexamine its position and treatment of the labor force.”
Well, Hitler pretty much defeated himself, but of course USSR was a key factor in the Allied victory. But you should not attribute this to communism – a tsarist or even better, a democratic Russia would also have defeated Hitler.
Soviet Union wasn’t completely alone in its struggle, but I don’t want to get into the traditional “Importance of lend-lease to Soviet ultimate victory” debate.
Re: labor – where is this from? The international labor movement started in the 19th century…?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
christianity is against human nature. it is hostile towards many things, including those listed above (porn, gluttony, drinking, killing a random punter - um, at least if that is not done in the name of God). |
That's true, but religion is a voluntary thing - one is exercising their liberty to go against human nature in a manner that does not harm the natural rights of others. In that sense, it is totally different from communism, which seeks to deny individual rights.
So your point about religion being against human nature in many ways is well taken, but I see no problem with it unless religion is exercised to the extent it violates the rights of others.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
Capitalism has had almost complete power over the last 10 years, have we seen the military GDP's reduce to provide more social services?? NO in fact military budgets are going up.
Unemployment or less secure full time work is going up around the world. In Australia they claim unemployment is only 6% but if you count(which they don't since 92) those working less than 10hrs a week the rate is actually 22%
Youth suicide in our country in increasing at a even larger rate than the profits of our private banks.
The division b/w rich and poor is ever widening |
The division between rich and poor is widening is because the rich are getting richer more than the poor are getting richer, but both are getting richer. Compare 1800 to 2000... and any other 200 year period in history before that. The advances and the per capita income has dramatically increased, exponential growth in money.
The problem with most communists is they assume money is a zero-sum gain. No, the rich and poor get richers. Per capita income explodes... you have the richest and more equitable society since civilization began... BECAUSE of capitalism.
Simply put, Capitalism is good.
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If just 5% of the money spend on arms and armaments went to providing education and social services to the worlds disadvantaged, there would be less wars, as most wars eventuate via ignorance(lack of education), fear and need (if you have nothing war becomes a means to end)
Here's something else: 1st World countries benifit from wars, it keeps them rich (providing arms) and stops others from playing on a equal footing. Wars will not reduce under capitalism. |
Yep, if money gets taken from the military (and I'd prefer that money go to the people in tax cuts) there would be greater economic growth. If you think 1st World countries benefit from wars, you haven't really been looking at things. Huge military budgets HURTS first world nations. It is a tribute to the United States that we have such a large military budget and still a great per capita income and prosperity!
International Relations data shows us that democracies don't fight against each other. So, capitalist democracies would lead to much less war and less military spending. Therefore we should expand capitalism and democracy across the world.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
International Relations data shows us that democracies don't fight against each other. |
Whereas, historically, communist nations have certainly fought each other, the most notable example being China and Vietnam and China and the USSR (large divisional sized border skirmishes on several occasions).
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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War of 1812? Revolutionary War? US invasion of Puerto Rico? WWI (Germany, like England, was a constitutional monarchy, much power resided in the Parliament)? The Contra War against Nicaragua? Democracies fight each other also. The US Civil War?
You might as well toss in the McDonald's theory, that no two countries with a McDonald's have ever fought a war (the exception being the NATO war on Yugoslavia).
The US, Germany, and Britain almost got into a three way fight of American Somoa, except that a typhoon sank the other two fleets. Greece and Turkey are always almost getting into a fight, and only their NATO allies keep them from fighting. Turkey invaded Cyprus.
The whole democracies never fight is a crock of sh*t.
And just to tie it back into the thread, the US, Britain, and France all attacked the nacent Soviet state, back when it was still democratic.
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03-05-2002 07:41
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