06-04-2002 19:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov When in combat, a soldier must assume that the big black thing pointed at him is an RPG, not a camera. Furthermore, many journalists have been caught in the crossfire, but the palestinians always claim Israelis shot them, and that is what gets shown.

If a journalist is so silly and gets shot that way, his fault. Just tell the world that happened.

quote: I try to show you more or less the whole picture, but I do not rely on palestinain statements when they can't be proven. They tend to lie.

That is more than biased. It's an accusation without any fundament.

quote: They claimed we killed a priest when we didn't. They claim we attacked the church for dozens of times in the last 48 hours, when we didn't.

Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

quote: I've heard them say we take parts of their children and use them as spare parts. What else?

Similarly did the frogs in WWI. We made them pay 25 years later

quote: The fact that there are 30 dead doesn't mean it's a massacare.

I didn't say that.

quote: Most of those 30 dead were armed gunmen. Some, innocent people who happenned to be caught in the fire or misidentified.

How can you know that? Were told so by your government? By that bastard Ariel Sharon? Uh...

quote: It happens in a war. I remind you America lost several soldiers from friendly fire. You can't say they "targeted" them.

The point is, do you learn from it and tend to be mre careful in future or do your soldeirs just not care and destroy any house they see?

As mentioned earlier, this Jenin stuff is pretty difficult to handle. I have 2 statements, and I'm not going to believe any of them. To be honest I mentioned it to give an example of "the whole picture" and "2 sides - 2 totally different statements about what's going on".

quote: Their claims have no credibility. Not after they invent things.

I understand you don't give them any credibility. But how am I supposed to know whether they do invent things or not. If they do, they don't deserve any. But how much credibility does a man like Ariel Sharon deserve? Or his soldiers, that are still acused of being violent an without any respect forthe Palestinian people? (accused, not convicted)

And one more point for MOBIUS - you mentioned small children being killed. That is sure sad and causes anger.

But were they killed intentionally by Israeli Snipers?

	06-04-2002 19:47									#32
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since there is no way Siro and I will agree on anything, said rule is now enforced.

	06-04-2002 21:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion quote: They claimed we killed a priest when we didn't. They claim we attacked the church for dozens of times in the last 48 hours, when we didn't. Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

I can only comment on the priest accusation. Would you believe the Vatican if they told you that the Palestinians were liars in that instance?

	06-04-2002 21:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS OK, that looks very controversial indeed - get me a link to something other than this 'New Republic' site (i.e. something well known and respected) and I might give this some further consideration...

From a previous thread on the subject:

http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/03/18...Pal%E4stinenser

quote: Originally posted by BeBro Ok, I´ll not translate the whole arcticle of "Die Welt" since most parts are identically to [Siro's] quote, but perhaps some details, (freely translated): To the action itself: "Two days after an new outbreak of the Intifada in the Westbank father and son are at the Nezariman crossing, within a gunbattle between Palestinians and Israelis. All unarmed Palestinians flee, only the al-Duras stay there. The firefight lasts ca. 45 minutes, recorded on video for France2 by Talal abu Rachma. He sends material of six minutes to his studio in Jerusalem, but only 50 seconds arrive there and get finally on air. Correspondent Charles Enderlein (in Jerusalem) says he only received those 50 seconds, and he says he will charge everyone who say the video was manipulated." "The Palestinian TV made a videotape for the Ministry of Education, it shows a (not involved) Israeli sniper as murderer of Muhammad al-Dura."

	06-04-2002 21:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I can only comment on the priest accusation. Would you believe the Vatican if they told you that the Palestinians were liars in that instance?

I don't know if I would.

	06-04-2002 21:38									#36
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Hizballah fired Katyushas on Rajar, 3 injured

Rajar is an Arab village, divided between Israel and Lebanon. Few Katyushas had fallen there and 3 children were injured. One of the unjured is a baby in serious condition.


And yet again no one gives a **** when Arabs kill Arabs. It's when Jews kill them the situation is suddenly intolerable.

	06-04-2002 21:41									#37
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get rid of those insane buggers : p errm

	06-04-2002 21:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion If a journalist is so silly and gets shot that way, his fault. Just tell the world that happened.

we tried to tell the world that we didn't kill Muhamed El-durah.
Did anyone listen?

quote: That is more than biased. It's an accusation without any fundament.

I brought fundament in the next line

quote: Who tells US (Euros and Yanks) that you didn't? You can't expect us to believe they are lying.

What are you talking about?

There are claims and there are facts.

Fact: We didn't kill a priest. He even called the Vatican to assure he was alive and well.

Fact: We didn't attack a church, and we never will, since it would be suicidal.

quote: Similarly did the frogs in WWI. We made them pay 25 years later

??

quote: I didn't say that.

Yet you called it a massacare.
Or atleast someone did.

quote: How can you know that? Were told so by your government? By that bastard Ariel Sharon? Uh...

By IDF spokesman.
By news services.
And derived from common knowledge based on recordings of previous events.

quote: The point is, do you learn from it and tend to be mre careful in future or do your soldeirs just not care and destroy any house they see?

A) we do not destroy any house we see, only those which we need to destroy.
B) it's easy to say "you learn from it". How do you think it affects a gun battle? Do we shoot less? Do we not shoot at all?

quote: As mentioned earlier, this Jenin stuff is pretty difficult to handle. I have 2 statements, and I'm not going to believe any of them. To be honest I mentioned it to give an example of "the whole picture" and "2 sides - 2 totally different statements about what's going on".

Again, since there are Israeli casualties, it means that there are armed men fighting the IDF. This means IDF shoots at armed men. This means that there will be many dead Palestinians who were armed men.

IDF soldiers do not die from shooting at helpless civilians.

quote: I understand you don't give them any credibility. But how am I supposed to know whether they do invent things or not. If they do, they don't deserve any.

They do. I just brought you several examples.
1. we supposedly killed a priest
2. we supposedly attacked a church
3. we supposedly steal palestinian children's parts

quote: But how much credibility does a man like Ariel Sharon deserve?

Why is it that you think that my news service consists of Ariel Sharon sitting there and speaking?

It is the Palestinian and Arab media that is country run.

[

quote: Or his soldiers, that are still acused of being violent an without any respect forthe Palestinian people? (accused, not convicted)

More than terrorists that are guilty of terror (though not officially convicted)

quote: And one more point for MOBIUS - you mentioned small children being killed. That is sure sad and causes anger. But were they killed intentionally by Israeli Snipers?

No.

Most often, they are collateral damage from shelling palestinian targets, or from gun battles, in which case it is unclear who hit whom.

Palestinians, however, did snipe Israeli children. Both using guns (5 month old Shalhevet Pass) and using bombs (terrorists targetting discotheques, coming up to children and talking to them).

	06-04-2002 22:09									#39
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quote: What are you talking about? There are claims and there are facts. Fact: We didn't kill a priest. He even called the Vatican to assure he was alive and well. Fact: We didn't attack a church, and we never will, since it would be suicidal.

I didn't know he had contacted his boss already. Point taken

quote: ??

!!
You said they were telling stories about you eating babies or so. Such did the French in WWI. They lied, all about propaganda. And we made them pay 25 years later. 1940 that is ... oh...

quote: Yet you called it a massacare. Or atleast someone did.

You're twisting things, as you will do later on, I'm looking forward to it, but now for this: I said our news sites say that the Arabs say that you guys massacre people there. That is not in contraduiciton to the fact that you killed 30 people.

1. There might be more killed than said 30 armed men

2. Not all of them have to be armed guys, and 10 civilians that would be a massacre

quote: A) we do not destroy any house we see, only those which we need to destroy. B) it's easy to say "you learn from it". How do you think it affects a gun battle? Do we shoot less? Do we not shoot at all?

That's not an answer. There are ways to save the people that live in a house before you destroy it. You don't just destroy houses when in gun battles with Palestinians, do you? If it is necessary, then it is a hard fact of life that there are still innocent people in the house. And the Palestinians using them as shelters are arseholes in that case. But as on many other occasions, I have no idea under which circumstances those houses were destroyed. That's the problem, you could just make up things and I'd have to buy into them. I won't do that anyway, just "ask questions" over and over again

quote: Again, since there are Israeli casualties, it means that there are armed men fighting the IDF. This means IDF shoots at armed men. This means that there will be many dead Palestinians who were armed men.

That doesn't mean ALL killed people there are armed men, my friend. Noone doubts that there are armed Palestinians in Jenin, but soem think your soldiers ignore all the innocent ones around. Again, if those or their homes are used as shelters for the bad guys, your soldiers can hardly be to blame. Somewhat, I don't know what to think about such a situation...

quote: IDF soldiers do not die from shooting at helpless civilians.

But helpless civilians die from IDF soldiers shooting at them.

OK, this just had to be said ;-)

quote: They do. I just brought you several examples. 1. we supposedly killed a priest 2. we supposedly attacked a church 3. we supposedly steal palestinian children's parts

Doesn't mean all of them are born liars. There are liars in every government. But of course that means their public guys are not to trust in...

quote: No. Most often, they are collateral damage from shelling palestinian targets, or from gun battles, in which case it is unclear who hit whom. Palestinians, however, did snipe Israeli children. Both using guns (5 month old Shalhevet Pass) and using bombs (terrorists targetting discotheques, coming up to children and talking to them).

That's my point, I just couldn't be arsed to summarize it, so thanks for putting it brief.

Now I'd like to know whether it makes a difference for you MOBIUS, whether a baby is killed on intention or was probably not even known to be there and ended as ... well, there's only that term, as collateral damage?

	06-04-2002 22:37									#40
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quote: You said they were telling stories about you eating babies or so. Such did the French in WWI. They lied, all about propaganda. And we made them pay 25 years later. 1940 that is ... oh...

Stories such as what?

(I could insert evil reference to holocaust here )

quote: You're twisting things, as you will do later on, I'm looking forward to it, but now for this: I said our news sites say that the Arabs say that you guys massacre people there. That is not in contraduiciton to the fact that you killed 30 people. 1. There might be more killed than said 30 armed men 2. Not all of them have to be armed guys, and 10 civilians that would be a massacre

How could killing 10 civilians, on accident, in a very tough urban combat, be considered a massacare?
A massacare would be if we pass from home to home and shoot people indesriminantly.

quote: That's not an answer. There are ways to save the people that live in a house before you destroy it.

Erm... the houses we destroy are evacuated.
And those that we destroyed some months ago, were vacant.

quote: You don't just destroy houses when in gun battles with Palestinians, do you? If it is necessary, then it is a hard fact of life that there are still innocent people in the house.

Erm, I haven't heard of houses being destroyed with people being inside.

quote: I have no idea under which circumstances those houses were destroyed.

Aha

quote: That's the problem, you could just make up things and I'd have to buy into them. I won't do that anyway, just "ask questions" over and over again

mmkay

quote: That doesn't mean ALL killed people there are armed men, my friend. Noone doubts that there are armed Palestinians in Jenin, but soem think your soldiers ignore all the innocent ones around. Again, if those or their homes are used as shelters for the bad guys, your soldiers can hardly be to blame. Somewhat, I don't know what to think about such a situation...

Look, the latest news report said that the armed terrorists are forcing the civilians to stay in their homes, in hope to use them as human shield, and increase deaths so they can call it a massacare.

IDF did want the civilians to leave the area so they could do house to house search.

But most houses are now booby trapped, and many civilians are forcefully held inside, so that they will be hit as well.

IDF says soldiers are aware of it, and doing all they can to avoid hitting the innocent people that are held in the same houses as terrorists.

quote: But helpless civilians die from IDF soldiers shooting at them.

tsk tsk

They die from IDF shots that hit them.
I doubt IDF targets them.

quote: Doesn't mean all of them are born liars. There are liars in every government. But of course that means their public guys are not to trust in...

And the same goes for most of the civilians.

For instance, many doctors are in it as well.
There are recorded incidents of doctors presenting naturally dead people as victims of Israeli fire. Look at the 5th page of the ME pictures thread, where Guardian presents a claim of two people bleeding to death after being hit from israeli fire, but they have little blood around them.

quote: Now I'd like to know whether it makes a difference for you MOBIUS, whether a baby is killed on intention or was probably not even known to be there and ended as ... well, there's only that term, as collateral damage?

This is what I've asked him many times.

To him it doesn't make a difference. He made that clear in his posts about Afghanistan as well.

	06-04-2002 23:18									#41
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A small Israeli unmanned plane crashed near the settlement of Yitzhar. Close to the Palestinian city of Nablus.

No casualties. Doh.

	06-04-2002 23:23									#42
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In English that is called "missile heading for a big apartment house full of children"

	07-04-2002 03:53									#43
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Sudan declares open training ground for terrorists
Sudanece Defense Minister offered anyone who wants to attack Israel to come train at Sudan's military facilities. "Every Sudanese civilian is hereupon called to defend Palestine" he said addressing the nation on National Tv.

IDF soldiers leave appology notes
IDF soldiers reportedly tend to leave appology notes in homes of families they occupied. "It's tough" they say "and very unpleasant, but it's duty".

	07-04-2002 04:42									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov IDF soldiers leave appology notes IDF soldiers reportedly tend to leave appology notes in homes of families they occupied. "It's tough" they say "and very unpleasant, but it's duty".

They should really stop that practice. It can only serve to inflame a person even further than he already is.

	07-04-2002 04:53									#45
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On CNN right now... they are talking about the IDF bullying journalists.

Bad press... the Journalists might not be anti-Israel but they aren't going to stand for not being able to cover events . That, and it seems like you are trying to hide something.

Also the other day, an American living in Palestine was telling how IDF soldiers destroyed her house and urinated on the floors. She called them bullies and thugs.

Bad press indeed.

	07-04-2002 15:45									#46
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Dito Imran, same on German channels, at least the blocking of journalists.

And how can it be tough work to leave apology notes?

	07-04-2002 17:15									#47
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The IDF : "We killed more than 30 armed gunmen in Nablus in the last 48 hours"



In total, 11 Israeli soldiers and aproximately 200 Palestinians were killed during operation "Defensive Wall".
It should be noted that during that week the number of Israelis killed in terrorist acts is 1. Compared to 30 per week in the last month.

	07-04-2002 18:05									#48
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Nablus had fallen



The number of casualties from the Passover Massacre increased to 27

After an 89 years old holocaust survivor died from her wounds.

	07-04-2002 18:19									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS OK, that looks very controversial indeed - get me a link to something other than this 'New Republic' site (i.e. something well known and respected) and I might give this some further consideration...

This story is legitimate, as is The New Republic.

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Good sentiments Andy, I was at the Pearl Harbour Memorial today and the futility of war was reminded big time! War is only fought because both sides feel that they can ultimately win...

Yea, if only those damned Americans hadn't thought they could win then everyone would be living in peace within the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere now.

	07-04-2002 22:30									#50
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The Hizballah continues provocating Israel on the northern border

5 people were injured when 9 Katyushas had fallen on an IDF base near Kibbutz Avivim. The Israeli bases on the northern border are under heavy fire and there are reports about missiles falling near the city of Kiryat Shmone.
The IDF responds with artillery and warplanes on suspected Hizballah positions. No reports on Arab casualties.

It should be noted that in the last week the Hizballah slowly escalates the battles. From light guns fire on Israeli fortifications in Har Dov("disputed territory"), to mortar fire on those bases and empty territories inside Israel, to mortar fire on an Israeli Arab village nearby and Katyushas on empty territories in northern Israel and today Katyushas on Israeli military base, with 3 female and 2 male soldeirs injured(one seriously).
The Hizballah clearly awaits for Israeli retaliation so that it will have a reason to fire Katyushas on Israeli population centers saying that Israel is the aggressor.

	07-04-2002 23:03									#51
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IDF slowly working in Nablus "Kasaba" camp
IDF reports that at least 13 palestinains were killed today in the Kasaba, and possibly 30 since IDF's incursion untill noon. IDF said the fighting is "fierce" and that "Palestinian militants fought to the end, and didn't surrender". Many explosives and weapons and laboratories were discovered. Dozens of suspected terrorists were arrested.

Some of the killed, are of the most senior Fatah leaders: Ahmad Tabuk and Moid Jamyil.

Jenin: 30 Palestinians turn themselves in
Fierce battles continue for the 5th day in a row. Palestinians say up to 30 killed in battles. 30 turned themselves in today. IDF said that the remaining resistance is bound to a tiny part of the camp.

Chief of Staff: 70 captives are "heavily wanted"
IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz told the cabinet that 70 of the captives are "heavily wanted" and that IDF would need 8 more weeks to successfully eradicate terror.

Minister of Defense: Israel's sand watch has become shorter
"But we do not intend to withdraw at once, without proper conditions for security being created." He added: "We do not intend to leave only to return again".

Sharon to Bush: We are making every effort to shorten the action
"However, it is difficult since it is in urban and heavily populated terrain, and made attempting not to cause civilian casualties."

	08-04-2002 00:39									#52
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Oh dear god , no ! Another thread will succumb victim to Siro . Save the Threads!!!!!

	08-04-2002 00:43									#53
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What the...?

This is meant for newsposting. If you would move your ass, I wouldn't have to post.


And don't you feel ashamed wearing that flag, when even people of other countries put up Israel's flag in support?

	08-04-2002 00:56									#54
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well.. If you'd make me an avatar combining the two flags , I would definetly wear it. Would you?

	08-04-2002 02:08									#55
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guys, your last posts are absolutely irrelevant in a news thread.

	08-04-2002 02:16									#56
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Are you a nincompup?

didn't you know that some dozen of the suggested Israeli flags were communist - ie Red with all sorts of commie signs?

Attachment: commie1.gif
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

	08-04-2002 02:17									#57
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Dalgetti started it

Attachment: commie2.gif
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	08-04-2002 17:35									#58
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The Kasba in Nablus is under Israeli control after tens of gunmen surrender.

19 rockets were fired on the Jenin refugee camp. The IDF told all Palestinian civilians to get the hell out of there.

	08-04-2002 17:47									#59
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http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=TQXY5M0XTWVLECRBAEKSFEYKEEATIIWD?type=topnews&StoryID=785093

The sixteenth paragraph :

quote: Witnesses said a Palestinian policeman had been shot dead at the compound of the church built on the spot where Christians believe Sharon was born. A fire started in the compound but was quickly put out. Its cause could not be independently verified.

	08-04-2002 19:28									#60
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show me the link . I'll PM you which one I'd like you to make my avatar. Thanks in Advance, and sorry for the disturbance