10-04-2002 20:46									#121
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quote: Rex Little, you're so close to actually getting it. The results of genetic research have shown us that there is a larger genetic variance within a so-called racial group than there is between different racial groups.

Go back to page 1 and read my first post. I said exactly that.

	10-04-2002 21:54									#122
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever MtG, explain the results in the sprints over the last 20 years?

Allow me to answer it, if you'd be so kind.

Do the sprint results of the last 30 years (why cop out at 20?) indicate that blacks are superior sprinters? Let's examine the Olympics, shall we?

What did most of the sprint winners have in common? They were black.

What else did they have it common? They were American.

When the Americans boycotted the 1980 games, what were the respective colours of the 100 and 200 metre male sprint winners? Hint- Alan Wells and Pietro Mennea? Both whiter than me, in fact.

So is it being genetically black that makes a top sprinter, or being genetically American? Or, to put it another way, has a Kalahari Bushman or Pygmy ever won it?

You're trying to apply small-scale family genetics over globally racial scales. That's your flaw for you.

	10-04-2002 22:20									#123
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever No Che, that was the point, it was conducted in Aus nursery schools! (i'll try to find a link tommorrow) have a look at the NBA or the NFL for men who could meet those stats (most of them will be black, non will be asian)

Very few NFL players above 250 lbs (we're talking some tight ends, most interior linebackers, and a large majority linemen here) have the sustained sprint to do 100 meters in 10.5, because it isn't important to their sport - that's why you see sprint speed measured with the 40 for football.

Colin Powell and Al Sharpton are black - does that mean that God (or Darwin ) magically endowed them with the ability to shoot hoops or run a blitz?

The first big difference with Asians is most of 'em don't play football and basketball, especially with a goal of making pro. In the US, you get millions of kids who fantasize about being pro athletes, and you filter down from highschool, college, and finally pro camps, until you get a few hundred players in each league. Of those few hundred, a minority meet your size / speed criteria, so you're talking about a couple hundred individuals, total.

Using NBA power forwards as a study for anything is ridiculous, because they represent a tiny minority of any population group. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's dad was a 6'-3" janitor - so let's talk genetics there.

You're presuming genetics, when a combination of diet and training to a specific goal (combined speed / size position in NFL or power forward in NBA) have a much higher overall effect.

How many black sumo wrestlers do you find?

	10-04-2002 22:27									#124
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Another thing that influences people that wants to be athlets are their overall situation and opportunities . If sports is the only way to get fame, fortune and a college degree for some people those might very well be more than the should be considering the population at large.

How many pro athletes are the children of rocket scientists or multi-millioneers?

	10-04-2002 22:39									#125
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't a single NFL player over 250 pounds who can run 100 meters in 10.5 seconds. 100 meters in 10.5 seconds is nearly world-class sprinting. There might be two or three wide receivers in the whole league who can run that fast, and they sure as hell 1) aren't over 250 pounds, 2) can't run that fast in pads.

	11-04-2002 02:15									#126
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Well we're still waiting for your contribution to this thread, Caligastia. I'm assuming you have an opinion on this article one way or another.

	11-04-2002 02:56									#127
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The NFL thing was a bad example ( i'm english, i was tring to put it in an american context, so i may be a few pounds and 10's of a second out). but the point stands. As for the sprints, next time a white american wins the 100, 200 or 400 champoinship, let me know!

so except for skin colour, every race is exactly the same? what a coincidence! the only trait that differs is one we can see!!! i stand corrected!

	11-04-2002 04:05									#128
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever The NFL thing was a bad example ( i'm english, i was tring to put it in an american context, so i may be a few pounds and 10's of a second out). but the point stands. As for the sprints, next time a white american wins the 100, 200 or 400 champoinship, let me know!

Then you should argue from what you know. Let's talk about soccer, or as your freaks call it, footbal. Is any one race dominent in football? The phyical traits that enable you to excell in American football or basketball will also be the same traights that would have you excel in football. Yet, I don't see a lot of African ringers in British football teams. France won the world cup. Race does not seem to be much of a factor here.

quote: so except for skin colour, every race is exactly the same? what a coincidence! the only trait that differs is one we can see!!! i stand corrected!

The overwhelming prepondernce of logic and evidence is against you. Why are you so disappointed to be wrong in this instance? Why do you have an emotional stake in racial superiority?

There are minor, superficial differences between "races," hair type, skin color, smell, some "races" are more susecptable to certain diseases (since they weren't exposed to the disease until recently), but a Black person's liver will fit just as well in a white person's body as a white person's liver. A Black person's brain is just as capable of making synaptic connections as a Jewish person's.

What you fail to understand is that many of your preconceptions are based upon sterotypes and media. Does anyone pay attention to the fact that the number one brain surgeon in the US is Black? Hmmmm. Well, it's doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that racial divisions of intelligence are a crock.

	11-04-2002 06:52									#129
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we'll have to agree to disagree then Che, but i take it you don't follow Football (or Soccer as you people call it), check out the French world cup winning team, now i don't know what the percentage of the French populus is black but would guess it's not 60%?

Gimme a break with the NFL reference, i was just trying to couch things in your terms.

PS nobody has answered the dog question yet?

	11-04-2002 06:59									#130
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever PS nobody has answered the dog question yet?

Yes I did.

	11-04-2002 07:00									#131
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The overwhelming prepondernce of logic and evidence is against you. Why are you so disappointed to be wrong in this instance? Why do you have an emotional stake in racial superiority? .

..non of which you've shown?

	11-04-2002 07:04									#132
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no you didn't

so, one breed of dog is as smart as any other? please read the post (not mine) (Page 3 i think)

	11-04-2002 07:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Does anyone pay attention to the fact that the number one brain surgeon in the US is Black? Hmmmm. Well, it's doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that racial divisions of intelligence are a crock.

Ummm......I in fact didn't pay attention to the fact that the #1 brain surgeon in the US is black. Why should I?

And is that the AP or the ESPN/USA Today poll?

	11-04-2002 08:01									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't a single NFL player over 250 pounds who can run 100 meters in 10.5 seconds. 100 meters in 10.5 seconds is nearly world-class sprinting. There might be two or three wide receivers in the whole league who can run that fast, and they sure as hell 1) aren't over 250 pounds, 2) can't run that fast in pads.

World class speed in the 100 is in the low 9's. I was never a sprinter at any weight, but ran the 100 in the 10.7 range.

Mark Gastineau (sp?), used to be a defensive lineman with the Jets, IIRC, could run the 100 in better than that speed range (40 in 4.6, which is even more impressive) at 269 lbs. In case anyone wondered, he's white.

Most wide receivers and cornerbacks can run 10.0 or better 100's, or they wouldn't be in the league - but the big difference is that for them, their sprint speed is significantly a part of their playing ability - in fact, a lot of them run track and don't make it, so football is an alternative - they don't generally have the height for basketball, their speed is of very limited use in baseball, so football becomes an alternative.

	11-04-2002 08:06									#135
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever no you didn't so, one breed of dog is as smart as any other? please read the post (not mine) (Page 3 i think)

Dogs are in theory selectively bred (and culled) for specific breed traits, over many generations. The degree of focus on selective breeding is extreme (when talking champion bloodlines that are the best technical representatives of their breeds) that it is totally incomparable to relatively undirected human breeding.

BTW, I think studies have shown that there is a very slight bias in fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fiber ratios in American whites and American blacks, but the overall degree of shift was not considered statistically significant.

	11-04-2002 08:39									#136
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Very few NFL players above 250 lbs (we're talking some tight ends, most interior linebackers, and a large majority linemen here) have the sustained sprint to do 100 meters in 10.5, because it isn't important to their sport - that's why you see sprint speed measured with the 40 for football. Colin Powell and Al Sharpton are black - does that mean that God (or Darwin ) magically endowed them with the ability to shoot hoops or run a blitz? The first big difference with Asians is most of 'em don't play football and basketball, especially with a goal of making pro. In the US, you get millions of kids who fantasize about being pro athletes, and you filter down from highschool, college, and finally pro camps, until you get a few hundred players in each league. Of those few hundred, a minority meet your size / speed criteria, so you're talking about a couple hundred individuals, total. Using NBA power forwards as a study for anything is ridiculous, because they represent a tiny minority of any population group. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's dad was a 6'-3" janitor - so let's talk genetics there. You're presuming genetics, when a combination of diet and training to a specific goal (combined speed / size position in NFL or power forward in NBA) have a much higher overall effect. How many black sumo wrestlers do you find?

Using animals or sports as an analogy in conjunction with race, is simply reverting back to the late 19th century ideology of Social Darwinism, and racial pseudo-science.

Why anyone on Apolyton would embrace these out-dated ideologies that justified the concept of white supremacy, is beyond me.

	11-04-2002 11:57									#137
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever so except for skin colour, every race is exactly the same? what a coincidence! the only trait that differs is one we can see!!! i stand corrected!

Why is that so hard to believe. Think of your own race. Some are tall, some are short. Some are thin, some are fat. Some are athletic, some are not. Some are smart, some are dumb.

Think of all people of your race that you have met in your life time and what is the only common denominator? Their skin colour.

Now if that is true for your race, logic dictates that it is true for other races. If the only common denominator for a race is skin colour then the only thing that differentiates a race is skin colour and even then there are differences in skin tone among races.

	11-04-2002 13:19									#138
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't see a lot of African ringers in British football teams. France won the world cup. Race does not seem to be much of a factor here.

That's a pretty bad example. First, there's a lot of black englishmen in the game. In the national team players like Emile Heskey and Sol Campell. Second, the english leagues have very though laws for a work permit. A non-EU player needs 10 international caps and he must have played 75% of the countries latest games.

But that doesn't mean that black people are dominating the game in any way. Real Madrid is one of the best sides in the world and yesterday they played with, IIRC; Cesar, Roberto Carlos, Hierro, Salgado, Helguera, Figo, Zidane, Makelele, Raul and Morientes from start. Only Makelele is really black (Roberto Carlos is from Brazil, players from that country is such a mix-up so I don't know what to call him Zidanes parents where from Algeria but he's not black). Elber and Kuffour was black in the opposite team, Bayern München.

	11-04-2002 13:20									#139
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r4e:
"PS nobody has answered the dog question yet?"

A couple of people had answered the dog question (including me)...as I pointed out, if dogs were left to their own devices (rather than being forced into their breeds) then they would rapidly lose their breeds and become a largely homogenous mongrel.

Dogs (or any manmade beast) are a bad example to use.

Put simply (again)...people are different, no denying it, but the differences within a "race" are greater than the differences between the "races"...thus making "race" a pretty useless term.

You end up with enormous problems in defining a race:
Are Arabs a race, if not then where do they fit in?
How about Somalians? Are they African, East African, Somali?
The Egyptians?
The Malay...are they Asian? If so why are they rather different to the Chinese?
Native Americans? The Inca? The Maya? Are they the same race, or (since they're rather different) are they separate races?

Race is a crock based on a handful of physical characteristics that don't hold up when you look closely at it, unless you break race down to such a small level that you're basically saying the Celts are different to Anglo-Saxons...but then again Welsh look different to the Scots who look different to the Irish...so maybe we need to break it down further.

I'm hazarding a guess here...I look different to you..am I a race?

	11-04-2002 14:08									#140
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You claim the difference between races is "very small" and therefore there are no races. Using your logic, the difference between 10 and 11 is also very small, therefore 10=11.

	11-04-2002 15:15									#141
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever we'll have to agree to disagree then Che, but i take it you don't follow Football (or Soccer as you people call it), check out the French world cup winning team, now i don't know what the percentage of the French populus is black but would guess it's not 60%?

I did. How many of them are blacks? Clearly not in the majority.

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever PS nobody has answered the dog question yet?

I did, on page 4, and Tolls elaborated on it. Did you skip over our posts intentionally?

Anyway, here's a problem for you. If Blacks are so good at sprinting one would figure that they suck at the marathon, yes? Clearly this is not the case.

	11-04-2002 15:17									#142
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quote: Originally posted by WFHermans You claim the difference between races is "very small" and therefore there are no races. Using your logic, the difference between 10 and 11 is also very small, therefore 10=11.

By extension of your logic, MtG = WFHermans

	11-04-2002 16:55									#143
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So you agree that it is not reasonable to conclude that two things are the same because the difference between them is small.

	11-04-2002 17:00									#144
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What exactly about this:
"people are different, no denying it, but the differences within a "race" are greater than the differences between the "races"...thus making "race" a pretty useless term. "

do you not understand?

	11-04-2002 18:45									#145
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't think anyone who wasn't a white supremacist would be remoutely interested in it. It's been debunked for decades, and yet they keep pretending that it's "new" research.

So you really believe that you have to be a white supremacist to be interested in race differences? Why would a white supremacist believe that asians and ashkanazi jews have higher average intelligence than whites?

quote: It's it walks like a white supremacist and quacks like a white supremacist . . . you know the rest. Sociobiology is no more a field of science than paranormal psychology. It's just a fancy name for racism.

Thats your opinion Che. My opinion is that there are honest scientists who are genuinely interested in racial differences.

quote: Do you ever post anything about how f*cked up white people are, Caligastia? Or is it only significant if it's something which disparages Black people, Mr. "I'm not a racist, really?"

I once posted a thread saying that whites are physically inferior to blacks, but it was deleted by Ming.

Go ahead and call me racist if you want, I really dont care. I know Im not racist because IMO racism involves hatred of others based on race. I dont hate anyone.

	11-04-2002 18:55									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Really? That's your guess, is it?

Yep, but I hope Im wrong on that.

quote: Well it remains a guess. As does the travesty of a piece of "research" you chose to post.

Its not really a research piece. To me its just an opinion of someone who doesnt understand why people cant discuss this issue without getting emotional.

quote: Put your balls on the line and try defending that article you chose to post, rather than making mealy-mouthed attempts to smear those who argue against it.

When have I tried to smear anyone for arguing against this? Did I insult anyone here?

I will defend the guy who wrote the article by saying that I dont think he is a "vicious little **** who's got an axe to grind", just someone who isnt satisfied with the mainstream opinion on race.

	11-04-2002 18:59									#147
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun This was asked towards Caligastia. That was a good point, Chegitz, and it looks like Caligastia has chosen to ignore your question.

I dont have as much time as I would like to post here, who made you thread referee anyway?

	11-04-2002 19:43									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Well we're still waiting for your contribution to this thread, Caligastia. I'm assuming you have an opinion on this article one way or another.

Sorry to have kept you waiting. Ive been very busy the last couple of days.

	11-04-2002 20:13									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why is that so hard to believe. Think of your own race. Some are tall, some are short. Some are thin, some are fat. Some are athletic, some are not. Some are smart, some are dumb. Think of all people of your race that you have met in your life time and what is the only common denominator? Their skin colour. Now if that is true for your race, logic dictates that it is true for other races. If the only common denominator for a race is skin colour then the only thing that differentiates a race is skin colour and even then there are differences in skin tone among races.

Beautiful statement Tingkai. Why do people insist on saying some races are better at this and some are better at that? We should be saying some people are better at this and that.

Caligastia, reds4ever, WFHermans: Stop trying to overcome your own feelings of inadequacy by saying your better than a whole "race" (or almost a whole race) of people. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE UNTILL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.

	11-04-2002 20:19									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Caligastia, reds4ever, WFHermans: Stop trying to overcome your own feelings of inadequacy by saying your better than a whole "race" (or almost a whole race) of people.

None of us ever said that.

quote: Originally posted by Carver YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE UNTILL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.

I totally agree!