10-04-2002 06:22									#1
	Now I'm Just Mad! '1.17 Wound' Suffering from ads?

I finally figure out why I'm doing so miserable, too many Civs in my game.. So I reduce it, down to the normal 8 civs including me. Made the game about ten times more fun because I actually have a significant chance now, even though the computer is still pulling it's annoying ICS tricks which I refuse to do as well. Any case, I get monotheism after a few others, but decide to go ahead with the ole' Sistine Chapel. Someone else get's it before me, no big deal, I switch to JS Bach's. Twelve turns to go on JS's and someone get it's. I quickly barter to get economics from a civ who *just* got it. I switch to Adam Smith's... Two turns later three civ's starting building it, and two turns after that Germany finishes it. I *know* they did not switch from JS's to Adam's... unless they were legitimately making 200 shields a turn I'm very mad. This has ruined my game for me and upset me beyond all belief. It's just annoying, obnoxious, and another one of those things in Civ3 that piss me off! Is there anything I can do to even build a damned wonder in this game?

For now, I'm uninstalling the 1.17 wound, loading up from five turns ago on my autosave and installing 1.16 so maybe they won't trade economics with each other in a matter of ten seconds when I have to give away the farm for it.

	10-04-2002 06:41									#2
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It's possible they had a great leader. Those guys come in handy when trying to quickly build wonders.

	10-04-2002 07:23									#3
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quote: It's possible they had a great leader. Those guys come in handy when trying to quickly build wonders.

Has anyone ever actually seen the AI get a Great Leader?

	10-04-2002 07:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Has anyone ever actually seen the AI get a Great Leader?

I've never seen an AI army, so i would assume they use the GLs for building things.

	10-04-2002 07:31									#5
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I've definitely seen AI armies ... and I think I have seen a leader too, though I'm not certain about that one.

	10-04-2002 07:39									#6
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I've killed a few AI Great Leaders.

	10-04-2002 09:43									#7
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i've seen gls, killed them in cities, in the field etc. they especially tend to pop up when you are throwing tanks against mech infantry, lose a few, the become elite, get the gls etc.
i have also seen numerous ai armies in the field. I would think that they would use them for wonders too, though i don't know how this could ever be tested without a cheat ability.

	10-04-2002 13:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by nato I've definitely seen AI armies ... and I think I have seen a leader too, though I'm not certain about that one.

I saw AI armies too (about twice), but no GL alone and I did not notice AI using GL for rushing wonder.

	10-04-2002 13:49									#9
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I often see AI armies and sometimes even saw them get a leader when they won a battle against me. After this, the leader is of course a primary target for me and I do all to hunt him down and kill him. That's usually hard, because these guys are fast.

But I never had an evidence, that the AI uses a GL for wonder completion, at the countrary, using the spy view I could see so far, that all of their leaders are converted into armies.

	10-04-2002 16:59									#10
	Re: Now I'm Just Mad! '1.17 Wound' Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by whistlernj Any case, I get monotheism after a few others, but decide to go ahead with the ole' Sistine Chapel. Someone else get's it before me, no big deal, I switch to JS Bach's. Twelve turns to go on JS's and someone get it's. I quickly barter to get economics from a civ who *just* got it. I switch to Adam Smith's... Two turns later three civ's starting building it, and two turns after that Germany finishes it. I *know* they did not switch from JS's to Adam's... unless they were legitimately making 200 shields a turn I'm very mad. This has ruined my game for me and upset me beyond all belief. It's just annoying, obnoxious, and another one of those things in Civ3 that piss me off! Is there anything I can do to even build a damned wonder in this game? For now, I'm uninstalling the 1.17 wound, loading up from five turns ago on my autosave and installing 1.16 so maybe they won't trade economics with each other in a matter of ten seconds when I have to give away the farm for it.

I never tried going back to 1.16, (I dont think it will work with a saved game) but after I experienced similar miraculous AI wonder builiding I did try going back 20 turns and maximizing production in the city building the wonder. I was able to increase my speed by 3 or 4 turns which should have put me ahead of the AI build time. But it didnt! The AI still beat me to the wonder by 2 turns. Its build time was changed to beat me no matter what .

It might be that the AI has great leaders (it certainly does get them). But then why does it consistently use them to build a wonder one two turns before I finish it?

The only way to combat this AI cheat (and not lose all the shield production) is to do as whistlernj did and switch wonders then trade to the AI for a tech with a wonder (if you run out). I try to keep a small wonder "in my pocket" just in case.

At monarch and above I usually get one or two early wonders, maybe one middle age wonder and usually the hoover dam (then I win).

	10-04-2002 17:29									#11
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http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/Defense.htm

	10-04-2002 19:17									#12
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So if the AI is getting Great Leaders more often than the human player that means the AI has an unfair advantage. Even if the human choses a militaristic civ it's still rather hard to get a great leader.

So this means that Civ3 is more warlike than was originally promised us by Sid himself last year when he was interviewed by PC Gamer et. al.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (upon seemingly deaf ears I suspect): Civ3 rewards those (esp. the AI) who wage war continuously. There is no room for a peaceful builder in Civ3.

	10-04-2002 19:29									#13
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You know, the AI can gt leaders to...Maybe he hurried the GW...or is it easier to say it cheats....

	10-04-2002 19:36									#14
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quote: Has anyone ever actually seen the AI get a Great Leader?

Yup. Dozens. Both aquired in wars between me and the AI, as well as in wars between one AI civ and another.

I believe they use them to rush things as well, though not frequently. I've seen an AI GL disappear in a city, without an army being created, so it's either disbanded or used to rush. I wasn't able to check what or if something was rushed, since I had a war and couldn't spy on the city.

	10-04-2002 20:46									#15
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I have seen the AI use great leaders in armies against me twice. The one that comes to mind is my most recent game -- they had an army with spearmen attacking my mech inf. Sort of fun watching my one mech inf decimate their "Great Leader"

On a side note, I have received a great leader every time I took down an AI great leader, even if it's a knock-down-drag-out like spearmen vs mech inf. Like I said, only seen them twice, but it's a nice bonus if it always happens.

-- twistedx

	10-04-2002 21:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator You know, the AI can gt leaders to...Maybe he hurried the GW...or is it easier to say it cheats....

Whether the AI built the wonder with a GL or by increasing its production is irrelevant! It had to know when I would finish my wonder in order to beat me to it by two turns (twice) leaving me with a boatload of wasted production!

THATS A CHEAT!

This is not the first thread to mention this problem. The AI building a wonder 1 or two turns before the human player happens too often to be a coincidence.

	10-04-2002 21:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Whether the AI built the wonder with a GL or by increasing its production is irrelevant! It had to know when I would finish my wonder in order to beat me to it by two turns (twice) leaving me with a boatload of wasted production! THATS A CHEAT! This is not the first thread to mention this problem. The AI building a wonder 1 or two turns before the human player happens too often to be a coincidence.

LOL, did you know about the F8 key? It tells you what wonder is being built and where. So you can find out also. And if you build embassies, investigate the city. Nothing easier newbie.

Spec.

	10-04-2002 21:44									#18
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Just to add my five cents : the AI get leaders, and they DOES use them to build wonders. I remember being beaten by one turn by a AI on the construction of Sun Tzu. It was built since I got Feudalism in my most ressource-rich city, and I got Feudalism first, so I wondered what happened. I then reloaded to see how the AI could beat me, I put a unit in its territory, and I saw a stack of units coming back to its capital (the one they were building Sun Tzu in). And there was, guess what ? Yes, a GL in the stack

	10-04-2002 21:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH THATS A CHEAT!

I play "goal oriented" Civ, such as the completion of a wonder. That means I usually call it quits if I fail to meet my goal. When I have already lost a game, I will often reload the game to see if I could have done better. In the case of a wonder, I note the date the AI completed the wonder. If I replay the game from a previous point, I can often complete the wonder sooner; for instance, by rearranging the workers to emphasize shields, or by adding workers to the city to increase the number of workers.

The result is that if I can complete the wonder by the "due date," then I beat the AI. There is no cheat.

	10-04-2002 21:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator LOL, did you know about the F8 key? It tells you what wonder is being built and where. So you can find out also. And if you build embassies, investigate the city. Nothing easier newbie. Spec.

As a matter of fact I dont use the F8 Key. What for? I usually dont care to know what wonders are in what cities. If it allows the AI and human players to have access to info they shouldnt have its not a cheat. Its just an error. As for the embassies, they give info at the time of founding. How is it you're getting info after that time (before espionage).

As for being a newbie, figure this out, SIUYA!

	10-04-2002 21:52									#21
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I've got an AI great leader trapped by a bunch of workers right now. Since, the leader has no attack, they cant do a thing about it. and now no more leaders for them.

	10-04-2002 22:00									#22
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I have confirmed the use of a GL by the AI to rush a wonder. I was beat by 9 turns to the construction of the Cure for Cancer by Japan. They did not have genetics until 2 turns before they built the cure. When it happened, I checked with my military advisor and saw that the Japanese had a GL the turn before and not one after building the cure.

If anybody playing Civ3 does not use the F keys to find out what the other civs are up to, they are just asking to lose. The only part of espionage that works for me is being able to check on how many of each unit a civ has via the F3 key.

	10-04-2002 22:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by PatLasch I've got an AI great leader trapped by a bunch of workers right now. Since, the leader has no attack, they cant do a thing about it. and now no more leaders for them.

Brilliant!!!!

Napoleon at Elba, better make that St. Helena.

	10-04-2002 22:15									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Deornwulf If anybody playing Civ3 does not use the F keys to find out what the other civs are up to, they are just asking to lose. The only part of espionage that works for me is being able to check on how many of each unit a civ has via the F3 key.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I dont bother to check on what the AI is up to with the F keys other than to occasionally find out who the top civ is. As I said before, if the wonder info is available to everyone its not a cheat but it doesnt make sense to me to know what wonders are being built in cities or civs I havent even had contact with. It makes some sense to be able to get such info after espionage (which I dont bother with either) but not before.

As for winning and losing without the F keys. I play monarch and emperor and win almost all the time (which is why I'm waiting for multiplayer).

	10-04-2002 23:41									#25
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SIUYA: Shove it up your a$$. Impressive, you can swear. You must be an old-timer.

Using GLs to build a wonder is not a cheat. It makes sense. If I am building a wonder, and I have a GL, I will check to see if anyone else is building the wonder, and if I have embassies, I will check to see how far along they are. If they might finish it soon, then I rush it. If I don't have a leader, then I just hope for the best.

BTW: If you have an intelligence agency, you can determine if the AI has any leaders.

Steele

	11-04-2002 00:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by PatLasch I've got an AI great leader trapped by a bunch of workers right now. Since, the leader has no attack, they cant do a thing about it. and now no more leaders for them.

How does this stop more GLs? I rarely get GLs but once as the Greeks, I got 2 on one turn and 1 the next. Only 2 of them survived getting back to a city tho as the Egyptians thru a horde of chariots at me

	11-04-2002 00:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc SIUYA: Shove it up your a$$. Impressive, you can swear. You must be an old-timer. Using GLs to build a wonder is not a cheat. It makes sense. If I am building a wonder, and I have a GL, I will check to see if anyone else is building the wonder, and if I have embassies, I will check to see how far along they are. If they might finish it soon, then I rush it. If I don't have a leader, then I just hope for the best. BTW: If you have an intelligence agency, you can determine if the AI has any leaders. Steele

I dont believe anybody said building a wonder with a GL is a cheat. I certainly didnt.

What I said was that the AI's ability to know when you're building a wonder is a cheat. I then recanted that statement based upon the post stating that I too can know who's building what wonders simply by using the F8 key. If all players can know who's building a wonder, its not a cheat.

I did suggest that such knowledge is a mistake with respect to gameplay. If I cant know what units or buildings other civs are creating why should I be able to determine whether its building a wonder? I didnt expect to be able to do so and I didnt bother to check.

As for my ability to swear. In three languages. I started at a young age though and improved my skills while humping my a$$ through the bush (probably before you were born).

	11-04-2002 01:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Has anyone ever actually seen the AI get a Great Leader?

I have. I killed an AI Russian Great Leader one time.

	11-04-2002 01:52									#29
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quote: As for the embassies, they give info at the time of founding. How is it you're getting info after that time (before espionage).

Even before espionage, a civ can spy on your city ("investigate") and see what you are building and when it's due. All that's needed is an embassy in your capital build by him, or an embassy build by you in his capital.

Now take your loss and quit whining. The AI didn't cheat to beat you to finishing your wonder.

	11-04-2002 02:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The AI didn't cheat to beat you to finishing your wonder.

Is it possible you might read some of what the thread was about?

quote: Now take your loss and quit whining.

I give the same answer to you as to the previous pretentious git.