11-04-2002 03:21									#61
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I have nothing against volunteerism - especially as I would have a non-combat job

You think so?

Lesson #1 No matter what you do in the army, you are first and foremost a footsoldier. If you think you will be exempt don't bother joining.

I risked my life in ways that you have no idea of. Just BEING in the military is a risk.

And I didn't say that to mischaracterize you, I said it because you have strong beliefs, as do Wiglaf and MrFun. whether I agree with you or not, I respect your right to have them.

	11-04-2002 03:22									#62
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quote: You should have the moral integrity to do it on your own.

I suppose that greatly depends on the war, doesn't it?

	11-04-2002 03:26									#63
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I think I'd jump on the metaphorical grenade, but having never directly faced it I have to wonder if I've actually got the stones for it.

	11-04-2002 03:28									#64
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I also don't know what I'd do the first time I had to pull the trigger on "the enemy". I have a low tolerance for human suffering, despite being rather cold-blooded intellectually.

	11-04-2002 03:29									#65
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david, yes, it obviously depends on the war, however, i don't think one has the right to pick the wars his country has.

unless ones country behaves like nazi germany, he should support it.

and yes, more often than not, i will support tribalism over moralism.

moralism is futile IMO.

	11-04-2002 03:34									#66
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KH, one purpose of training and exercises is to get you used to the idea of pulling the trigger. When the balloon goes up, most trained soldiers will follow through. At least that has been the US experience since WW2. (previous wars had problems with what you are talking about.)

	11-04-2002 03:37									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand No matter what Jane Fonda said at your school, David; South Vietnam was a seperate country than North Vietnam. They wanted help.

It was only a seperate country because in 1956, the South threw out the election which would have turned power over to the Communists and united the whole country. It was a not a real country, but a tiny elite violently forcing it's will upon the vast majority of the people of Vietnam.

quote: South Korea doesn't want to be communist. Do you blame them? Look how badly the North sucks.

They did during the 40s and 50s. The situation was almost identical, in that the US imported dictator refused to allow the results of the elections to turn his people out of power. When finally forced by the US to have "free" election (the left was still banned, but at least the moderates were allowed to take part), his people were resoundingly defeated. And only a couple of months later, full scale civil war breaks out.

	11-04-2002 03:37									#68
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I know. The fact that ~1/2 of all soldiers just couldn't kill their fellow man without having to be prodded into it by 8 weeks of carefully designed "toughening up" actually gives me some faith in humanity.

	11-04-2002 03:40									#69
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My basic take is similar to Dissident's. I think I inhabit a wonderful civilization and would defend it against some bully. (Cold War, Bin Ladin, etc.)

When I was at USNA, I lived for one year in a room named for one of our Medal of Honor winners (Reem). The plaque had his (pasthoumous) award citation. He led a platoon up a hill in Korea and jumped on a hand grenade to save his comrades. The grenade landed amongst him and his NCO's as they were planning how to get up the heavily contested hill.

Staying in that room always made me think about what it takes to step up if your number is called. (Mine never was.)

	11-04-2002 03:47									#70
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I know. The fact that ~1/2 of all soldiers just couldn't kill their fellow man without having to be prodded into it by 8 weeks of carefully designed "toughening up" actually gives me some faith in humanity.

Agree. Our fellow men have both aggression and compassion in their hearts. Men are not angels but they have some original "good" with the original sin.

	11-04-2002 16:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber When it comes down to actually fighting in real life war, your not exactly thinking about flag and country. Your thinking about the guy on your left and the guy on your right. That's what men die for in combat.

Exactly!

It isn't about politics and which government is right or wrong, it's about not letting your buddies down! Of course, those who have never been in the service wouldn't understand...

I probably wouldn't like it much, but I'd go.
Not for the government and whatever policies they may or may not be pursuing at the time, but for my country and my people - and the other guys in my unit.

	11-04-2002 16:55									#72
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The fact that ~1/2 of all soldiers just couldn't kill their fellow man without having to be prodded into it by 8 weeks of carefully designed "toughening up" actually gives me some faith in humanity.

I still remember my first time shooting at a man-shaped target.
Couldn't do it at first. Pretended to have a problem with my rifle.
Then I imagined an SS officer pointing a gun at a dear friend of mine... Got angry and started shooting... Didn't stop until there was no ammo left...

	11-04-2002 17:16									#73
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I rather make the other side die for their country, if you get my drift. But then, I will only participate in a war that I feel is morally just.


Siro,

Tribalism is dangerous. Consider the Nazis and see if you still want to support tribalism.

	11-04-2002 17:22									#74
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No, I'd be no use dead. Hell, I'd be no use fighting. Give me a job away from the frontline where I can help the country with my brain not my trigger finger.

	11-04-2002 17:35									#75
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I also don't know what I'd do the first time I had to pull the trigger on "the enemy". I have a low tolerance for human suffering, despite being rather cold-blooded intellectually.

Aim for the head and everybody's happy.

	11-04-2002 17:41									#76
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Only if the nation is directly under attack. I wouldn't go to a place like Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq to fight a politician's war.

But if our Canadian neighbors to the North invaded, you bet your ass I'd be on my roof with an M16.

	11-04-2002 17:46									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Aim for the head and everybody's happy

Har har.

	11-04-2002 17:49									#78
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I decided 'yes' to this question many years ago, and prepared myself mentally to take great risks and to kill if necessary. It's a serious burden to take on, and I was humbled by the experience. When I joined the Army I was a much better soldier for having thought things through though. People gravitated towards me because I was serious, and I ended up being a leader most of the time.

Most of the people here on Apolyton have never served in the military, of those that have most have never served while their country was at war, and only a couple have served in actual combat. The most flippant responses come from those who are farthest from potential danger. A lot of the emphatic 'no!' voters would find themselves willingly drawn into combat with the correct stimulus, and probably a few of the 'yes' voters would be paralyzed with fear at the prospect of actual combat, which is completely reasonable. As I see it, this is just another measure of responsibility, like voting instead of just *****ing, or contributing to the economy rather than just living on welfare. It is not the only or most important measure of a man, but it's a measure nonetheless.

	11-04-2002 17:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Give me a job away from the frontline where I can help the country with my brain not my trigger finger.

That will be an ever better choice.

	11-04-2002 18:24									#80
	I voted YES BTW Tired of ads?

Personally, I want WWIII to break out. I think I'd be good at war.

	11-04-2002 18:25									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I will only participate in a war that I feel is morally just.

Against those who would try to kill my people, any war is morally just as far as I'm concerned...

	11-04-2002 18:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Personally, I want WWIII to break out. I think I'd be good at war.

Once again, my Moderate viewpoint just screams out.
"Want WWIII to break out"?
That's as wrong, at the other end of the spectrum, as some of the others. (David )

	11-04-2002 18:33									#83
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Once again, my Moderate viewpoint just screams out. "Want WWIII to break out"? That's as wrong, at the other end of the spectrum, as some of the others. (David )

heheh, I can't explain why I want it to happen... I just do

War is the only way the world will ever come to universal peace. Somebody must bring order to the chaos.

Maybe I'm the third anti-christ that Nostradamus was talking about.

	11-04-2002 18:36									#84
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You can tell somebody that hasn't put their motorcycle down hard by some of the ignorant things they do on a motorcycle.
You can also tell when someone's not been in the service, by much the same observations.

	11-04-2002 18:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava heheh, I can't explain why I want it to happen... I just do War is the only way the world will ever come to universal peace. Somebody must bring order to the chaos. Maybe I'm the third anti-christ that Nostradamus was talking about.

So, you basically think we ought to nuke ourselves off the face of the planet?

Admittedly, that would solve our petty problems once and for all, but I must say, I do find it a bit extreme...

	11-04-2002 18:48									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You can tell somebody that hasn't put their motorcycle down hard by some of the ignorant things they do on a motorcycle. You can also tell when someone's not been in the service, by much the same observations.

Good point...

	11-04-2002 18:52									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov david, yes, it obviously depends on the war, however, i don't think one has the right to pick the wars his country has.

Siro, you must be the perfect soldier... Donīt question your superiors and be grateful for the chance to die for your country... Your body is just simmering with nationalist testosterone isnīt it?

quote: unless ones country behaves like nazi germany, he should support it.

...or behaves like Israel?

quote: and yes, more often than not, i will support tribalism over moralism. moralism is futile IMO.

How come Iīm not surprised?

	11-04-2002 18:56									#88
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You know I think they are laws (in Greek military code and I imagine elsewhere) which do give you the right to disobey the order of a superior if this is wrong.

Now I have no clue what would that mean in actual combat but there are these laws.

I'd have no problem obeying orders as long as they are just. An order to execute unarmed innocents would propably find me turning my gun the other way and pointing to the one that gave the order.
But that is all in theory, see. Unless you're there you'd never know.

	11-04-2002 18:57									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Herr David What's the point of this thread? To make totally pointless pseudo-"discussions" while we're all sitting in front of some PC, probably bored or stuped... thinking our opinions matter to anyone but us... If you want to talk about serious subjects go out and talk to real people face-to-tace, that's what I think.

Maybe we want to engage in meaningless pseudo-discussions? Ever think of that, Einstein?

But the obvious question is if course: what the **** are you doing here if itīs totally pointless? Why arenīt you out there, in the real world, riding your high horse saving the whales or whatever?

	11-04-2002 18:59									#90
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"probably find me turning my gun the other way and pointing to the one that gave the order."

It's not like this doesn't happen on occasion.



And Kamrat, wtf is he doing, giving his opinion here, rather than being out talking face-to-face?
Another nimrod better at theory than practice.