11-04-2002 11:35									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Good job EU Parliament!

Shouldn't they actually do something before being complimented?

	11-04-2002 12:41									#32
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quote: It's a familiar pattern going back at least to the Yom Kippur War of 1973, when the international community was struck by the necessity of mediating the conflict as soon as General Sharon's tanks turned up across the Suez and within striking distance of Cairo. Clearly something had to be done.

Typical propaganda crap....

The soviet union said they would intervine and save the 3rd army. USA order intercontential bombers fueled and airborne. Within a half hour bombers armed with nuclear warheads where in flying toward soviet airspace. The soviets backed bown and kissinger flew to moscow to work out the details. Journalists who write stuff like this and who distort the facts to incite hate/violance should be locked up.

	11-04-2002 12:50									#33
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Dino, just where do you find all those crap articles ? (the initial one, that is)

As for the issue - the EU has had the same position for a long time. Israel and the US didn't want to hear anything. Now the US has pretty much realised we were right all along - and Israel doesn't want to listen, at least until the US also pulls up some pressure.

As for the ridiculous "antisemitic EU sponsors palestinian terrorism because they want to kill jews" claimers - please keep your heads firmly up your asses, so we are spared the view of your idiotic shitinfested visages.

I guess I shouldn't, but one thing about all the ME threads: Of course Arafat is a terrorist. So is Sharon. So get over the rightous babble.

	11-04-2002 17:44									#34
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Sprayber:

1) About the concerts in Sydagma.

I was there. But then I left. I wanted to write extensively about this. It was the first pro-palestinian rally I attended. But I became dissilusioned at the blind support of Palestine, including the justification of terror attacks by some people there.

I became dissilusioned and I left. Before that I actually spoke loudly in support of Israel (I mentioned the suicide attacks and that there can be no justification for them) and almost gott beaten up for it.
That's about that. BOTH sides have a lot to be blamed upon them.
I support a rally against Palestinian suicide attacks in Greece too.

2) Balkans wars: 2 so far. I don;t know if the Yugoslav war can be qualified as a balkan war (considering in that in the first 2 wars everyboy was fighting (all the Balkan states with alliances swifting rapidly - except one alliance Greece - Serbia - always together).

Chris - Acknowledged and I withdraw by comment. I was thinking in Greek terms. (no descacration of anything jewish here - but a lot of support for palestine nevertheless in the form of protests outside israeli embassy).

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 11-04-2002 at 17:49

	11-04-2002 18:03									#35
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BTW one thing that really put me off was at one cash machine there were some stickers that said: "Suicide bombers are the poor man's F-16s".

That is just blind and fanatical thing to say. I generally became dissilutioned with the blind fanatism.
I could write for hours about this. Anti-americanism makes us (some of us) blind sometimes.

	11-04-2002 20:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Roland As for the issue - the EU has had the same position for a long time. Israel and the US didn't want to hear anything.

Say something worth listening to, and they might.

quote: Now the US has pretty much realised we were right all along - and Israel doesn't want to listen, at least until the US also pulls up some pressure.

Pure bull.
Bush is trolling for EU support for his Saddam attack, or this would never have come up.
If the EU would finnally come around and help with the terror war, we could put an end to it.

quote: As for the ridiculous "antisemitic EU sponsors palestinian terrorism because they want to kill jews" claimers - please keep your heads firmly up your asses, so we are spared the view of your idiotic shitinfested visages.

All those attacks against Jews in Europe must be propaganda, a figment of our imagination.
We all know Europe, especailly Bavaria would never ever hurt Jews, now don't we?

quote: I guess I shouldn't, but one thing about all the ME threads: Of course Arafat is a terrorist. So is Sharon. So get over the rightous babble.

Name one terror act carried out by Sharon.
Their Army is amoung the Pal population because that is where the Terrorists are hiding, but that would just kill your little morality play, now wouldn't it?

paiktis: Keeping you on your toes, bud.

	11-04-2002 20:47									#37
	Re: Ah, the yankee troll returns... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Say something worth listening to, and they might."

We do - the sad thing is that if we'd support the pals with a couple billion $ military aid per year, all the clowns from Arafat over Sharon to dubya would listen. Reason alone usually doesn't get heard.

"Bush is trolling for EU support for his Saddam attack, or this would never have come up."

That's one aspect. The other is that Arafat and Sharon are taking up where Bin Laden left....

"If the EU would finnally come around and help with the terror war, we could put an end to it."

Why not end that phony war now ?

"All those attacks against Jews in Europe must be propaganda, a figment of our imagination."

A very poor troll even by your standards. But it is somewhat amusing to see the antisemitic-europe propaganda line taken out in the US. Seems you have nothing better to do....

"Name one terror act carried out by Sharon."

Define "terror act". Those who order such acts qualify as terrorists too. As to what he has carried out personally, I do not know.

	11-04-2002 20:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin May seem a silly question, but what does Europe gain if it does conciously or unconsciously support the Palestinians? If there is no benefit why would they support them? If you look at the IRA sponsorship in America, mainly in Boston, there was no tangible benefit for the sponsors, but they did it because they claimed they were all Irish and so were helping their own. What would Europe's motivation be in helping the Palestinians? Incidentally I heard some bloke on C-SPAN a couple of days ago claiming it was because Europe sees Israel as an extension of America, and Europeans are 'pro' any group that is anti-US - hence pro Palestinian.

SD, that is part of it. But there are also commercial interests. The French at least have definite interests in Arabia and North Africa. In some cases...it has been as gross as selling nuclear powerplants and bioreactors to Iraq. Gee...I wonder why Sadam wants them?

	11-04-2002 21:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Dino, just where do you find all those crap articles ? (the initial one, that is)

How else am I supposed to spark a good discussion about this issue?

quote: the EU has had the same position for a long time.

The EU appeared to be fairly muted during the prior 18 months of Palestinian terror attacks in Israel proper. Which is somewhat suprising given the amount of influence they potentially weild over the PA due to being its largest single monetary backer.

quote: As for the ridiculous "antisemitic EU sponsors palestinian terrorism because they want to kill jews" claimers

It is an extreme statement, I'll grant you. However, it is based on the somewhat obvious evidence that the PA directly supports terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and isn't a weak regime unable to do anything to stop it. Which the EU as a whole seems to have ignored until now.

	11-04-2002 21:00									#40
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With Saddam's oil "embargo", the news was that a certain nation imports about 2/3rds of the 1.5 million barrels exports under the UN program.

Maybe I'll see if this can be confirmed, as it is a bit interesting which nation that is....

	11-04-2002 21:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Roland We do - the sad thing is that if we'd support the pals with a couple billion $ military aid per year, all the clowns from Arafat over Sharon to dubya would listen. Reason alone usually doesn't get heard.

How is calling for Israel to capitulate to terrorism "resonable"?

quote: That's one aspect. The other is that Arafat and Sharon are taking up where Bin Laden left....

This was going on long before OBL got his first turban.

quote: Why not end that phony war now ?

Typical non-sequitor responce.

quote: A very poor troll even by your standards. But it is somewhat amusing to see the antisemitic-europe propaganda line taken out in the US. Seems you have nothing better to do....

Yes, we are silly that way, we seem to be disturbed by Jew bashing and murder.
Someday we might be able to ignore it as you so love to do.

quote: Define "terror act". Those who order such acts qualify as terrorists too. As to what he has carried out personally, I do not know.

Name one attack he ordered.

	11-04-2002 21:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Roland I guess I shouldn't, but one thing about all the ME threads: Of course Arafat is a terrorist. So is Sharon. So get over the rightous babble.

False moral symmettry. Like those during the Cold War regarding US and USSR. Arafat is definitely more of a bad actor than Sharon.

(I mean if you want to send the hyperbole out...why not call Bush a terrorist also...some here would...and I laugh my manly laugh at them. )

	11-04-2002 21:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Maybe I'll see if this can be confirmed, as it is a bit interesting which nation that is....

France? Germany? Italy?

	11-04-2002 21:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Roland With Saddam's oil "embargo", the news was that a certain nation imports about 2/3rds of the 1.5 million barrels exports under the UN program. Maybe I'll see if this can be confirmed, as it is a bit interesting which nation that is....

Now...you are moving towards sophistry. It's a fungible commodity.

	11-04-2002 21:15									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Actually, I hope that anti semitic attacks will continue and even intensify in Europe.

You don't surprise me, Eli ...

	11-04-2002 21:16									#46
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You'd be surprised, DD

ZZW - Eli is just a little child. He's growing up in a sick nationalist culture, and he learns to do their polemy well.

	11-04-2002 22:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior You don't surprise me, Eli ...

There is nothing like a bit of anti-semitism to remind people that they are Jews and that they are in Exile.

And in the moment Jewish populations around the world(and in this specific case, France) realize this, they start returning to Israel.

	11-04-2002 23:14									#48
	Re: Europe is heard from, yet again Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: EU Parliament votes for sanctions against Israel By Herb Keinon The resolution - which condemns suicide bombings - also condemns the "military escalation pursued by the Sharon government," and the "oppression of the Palestinian civilian population by the Israeli army." Victor Harel, head of the Foreign Ministry's Western Europe department, said the resolution is "mistaken" and "one-sided," and will only serve to distance Europe further from an active role in the diplomatic process.

Interesting how Israel sees condemnation of the suicide bombings and condemnation of the 'millitary escalation' and 'oppression of the Palestinian civilian population' as 'one-sided'

I must therefore assume that Israel would want us to cheer on their invasion of territories that they handed regardless of any civilian casualties, whilst condemning the terrorist attacks.

I think that the Israeli governments actions count as 'state terrorism' and as such it holds only slighty higher moral ground than the Palestinian Authority.
It has invaded territory that it said it had withdrawn from and I don't believe that most of the 'millitants' there are terrorists, they are just patriotic palestinians defending their homes from an invading aggressor - how many posters here would not do likewise?

If Israel withdraws and imposes it's own 'peace settlement' on the Palestinians without their approval (which should be gained by a referendum on the deal) then all Israel has done is store up an even bigger rebellion for itself 5-10 years down the road.

	11-04-2002 23:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Interesting how Israel sees condemnation of the suicide bombings and condemnation of the 'millitary escalation' and 'oppression of the Palestinian civilian population' as 'one-sided'.

I think the reason that they see the resolution as one sided is that they find the timing of the half-hearted condemnation more than a little suspect in that Isael has been suffering from suicide bombings for more than a year with little more than silence from the EU.

	12-04-2002 01:48									#50
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quote: Name one terror act carried out by Sharon.

In his personal life?

What about the genocidal masscres in Sabra and Shatila? He was the general in charge.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/drbenalofs1.html
http://aztlan.net/theaccused.htm
http://www.isreview.org/issues/17/Ariel_Sharon.shtml

--

Of course the humilation that the Israeli soldiers are trying to put Palestinian innocents through can also be considered a form of terrorism. Destroying people's houses for no reason. Of course, their worst mistake was to do it to an American living in the West Bank, because she could get the ear of CNN.

	12-04-2002 02:43									#51
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Considering what China does to its muslims, and its other citizens, I can only denounce the European hypocrisy for a pathetic sham.

	12-04-2002 02:45									#52
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Yeah! They should be as consistent as the US... especially with respect to Cuba and China policy .

	12-04-2002 15:51									#53
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The reason for Europe's stance is pretty straightforward: a reluctance to blame the innocent majority of the Palestinian population for the action of a handful of terrorists.

The Israeli army, however, is a tool of the Israeli government, and hence of the Israeli population.

Both sides are killing innocent civilians. But only one side is doing it with forces that are clearly controlled by a government.

	12-04-2002 17:01									#54
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Dino:

"The EU appeared to be fairly muted during the prior 18 months of Palestinian terror attacks in Israel proper."

Too muted, yes.

"However, it is based on the somewhat obvious evidence that the PA directly supports terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and isn't a weak regime unable to do anything to stop it."

The PA has first been tolerating the attacks; the Al Aqsa stuff that seems to be tied directly into the PA via Fatah is a rather recent phenomenon. It was the same time though that Israel escalated military action and continued the illegal and fascist settlement policy - with the tacit backing of the US. It's a quagmire... But for the issue, the EU position has been all along that the Pals can't bomb their way to a state, and Israel can't bomb its way to peace and security.
"France? Germany? Italy?

The US, of course. But GP is right, it's fungible, and the proceeds are under UN control. But european economic interest in Iraq is similarly limited, maybe apart from one streak in France that seems to see Iraq as a counterweight to the US puppets Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia... or rather, percieved puppets - sometimes it seems it's the other way round....

"...that Isael has been suffering from suicide bombings for more than a year with little more than silence from the EU."

Silence ? Like the Fischer mission after the discotheque bombing ?

	12-04-2002 17:14									#55
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"How is calling for Israel to capitulate to terrorism "resonable"? "

Please darling show me a call for "capitulation". Or does "that the Pals can't bomb their way to a state, and Israel can't bomb its way to peace and security" a call for capitulation in your twisted mind ?

"Typical non-sequitor responce."

As long as you seriously think there is a war on terror going on, rather than a "war" on "terror", this is an appropriate counterquestion.

"Yes, we are silly that way, we seem to be disturbed by Jew bashing and murder."

Well I guess I'll get a couple beers, my Krompn, and look for a jew to kill. If that makes you happy....

Now that your silly stereotype is served, you may consider that most attacks happened in france, which has the largest jewish and the largest arab community in europe, and the latter having well-organised islamist cells related to Algerian groups like GIA.

Or do you really think there is more antisemitism in France than in Austria, Britain, Sweden or the US ?

"Name one attack he ordered."

Apart from the Sabrah/Shatillah issue ?

Attacks against PA police installatians.
Attacks against PA administrative structures.
Attacks against civilian infrastructure (sewers, airport etc).
"Liquidations" of supposed terrorists.

And I still give you the benefit of the doubt there that civilian casualties were not accepted or sought, and that the reports about targetting journalists and ambulances in the recent attacks are still not fully confirmed.

And on a broader level the settlement policy.

GP:

"False moral symmettry. Like those during the Cold War regarding US and USSR. Arafat is definitely more of a bad actor than Sharon."

Tough call. I'm not at all sure which one is worse.

"why not call Bush a terrorist also..."

Well that's another issue....

	12-04-2002 17:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless The reason for Europe's stance is pretty straightforward: a reluctance to blame the innocent majority of the Palestinian population for the action of a handful of terrorists. The Israeli army, however, is a tool of the Israeli government, and hence of the Israeli population. Both sides are killing innocent civilians. But only one side is doing it with forces that are clearly controlled by a government.

I fail to see the difference between popular governments waging popular war upon each other on both sides. The real difference is that the Israelis go out of their way not to kill non-combatants (otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops and limiting themselves almost entirely to direct fire weapons) while the Palestinians go out of their way to purposely kill non-combatants.

	12-04-2002 17:33									#57
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General Terrorism and the current military operation are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Why?

Terrorism is indiscriminate killing of non-combatants. The Palestinians have made their own bed by hiding combatants within their non-combatant population. This unfortunately means that any operation to rid the area of terrorists will also signinficantly effect the civilian population. The civilian population are also complicit in haboring these terrorists and supporting terrorist regimes, they, in my mind deserve everything they get.

The military operation is not indescriminately killing non-combantants. Israel has with in its power, the ability to kill as many Palestinians as it desires, although it chooses to be more selective.

History is kind to the victorious. Whilst a history book may question morality, it won't question the practical sovereignty.

--

On a lighter note, I'm glad that these suicide bombers only blew themselves and their families up. The current operation seems to be having a significantly successful impact in this regard.

mrbaggins

	12-04-2002 17:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I fail to see the difference between popular governments waging popular war upon each other on both sides. The real difference is that the Israelis go out of their way not to kill non-combatants (otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops and limiting themselves almost entirely to direct fire weapons) while the Palestinians go out of their way to purposely kill non-combatants.

Funny how we had the same idea at the same time. GMTA

	12-04-2002 17:48									#59
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"otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops"

Which would have a series of consequences. Hurt Israel's standing in the western world a lot more than already, make "fight against terror" implausible, and risk an explosion throughout the arab world. So while the conduct of the IDF appears relatively restrained to what could happen, I would not really see humanitarian motives involved.

	12-04-2002 18:01									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "otherwise they could just use heavy artillery from miles away and blast everyone rather than sending in ground troops" Which would have a series of consequences. Hurt Israel's standing in the western world a lot more than already, make "fight against terror" implausible, and risk an explosion throughout the arab world. So while the conduct of the IDF appears relatively restrained to what could happen, I would not really see humanitarian motives involved.

So why isn't there more clamoring from the western world to intervene to stop the Palestinians from not merely using indiscriminate means to attack the Israelis, but purposefully targeting civilians? Is the scale of only 30 killed a week too small to justify any action? Moral condemnation by the west is of small value against the Israelis, and of no value against the Palestinians.