12-04-2002 23:53									#91
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I just would be sure that everybody didn't have any doubt !

	13-04-2002 00:03									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Roland There was a mass rally in Paris.

Really? When was this? I guess your point about the US media is well-founded after all.

quote: What do you mean by "actions"?

Something similar to the proposed trade sanctions by the EU parliment and the massive criticism that Isael has recieved from the French, as an example.

	13-04-2002 00:08									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Something similar to the proposed trade sanctions by the EU parliment and the massive criticism that Isael has recieved from the French, as an example.

you want us to implement trade sanctions against israel now?

	13-04-2002 00:10									#94
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you want us to implement trade sanctions against israel now?

I posted a news article on the first page (I think), that you may find useful in answering that question on your own and without irritating me further.

	13-04-2002 00:11									#95
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don't think be sure

	13-04-2002 00:12									#96
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 don't think be sure

I just checked. It is on the first page of this thread.

	13-04-2002 00:16									#97
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declarative resolution by the europarliement.
in other words nothing - just decorative for now

	13-04-2002 00:24									#98
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 declarative resolution by the europarliement.

Which is what I said.

	13-04-2002 00:36									#99
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro To be honest, also my respect for the Palestinians is gone to the biggest part after the wave of terracts, esp. during the last time, so I can understand Israels reaction absolutely. However, I donīt believe only military actions alone will end the terror...

bebro : if you mean that ultimately a political solution is necessary, I think you are absolutely right. But it is very difficult for Israel to make the concessions that are required for peace while undergoing this level of terrorist activity. It is in fact very difficult for them to get to a more pragmatic govt (as to long term peace negotiations) when this level of terrorist activity is going on. There must FIRST be a ceasefire, an end to the murder of women and children, before serious negotiations can begin. And Arafat, who has been shown to be an active supporter, inciter, and financier of terrorism must be held to a high standard in using whatever resources remain at his disposal to crack down on terrorism.

I note that the press reports indicate that the Euro Parliament proposal to sanction Israel is unlikely to be implemented, due to the opposition of Britain, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany. I note that SOME European nations do seem to have learned something from European history. It is unfortunate that others have not.

I also note that the resolution passed by only 260 to 200 (or so). Does anyone know where I might find breakdowns by nationality and political grouping? (I tried the Euro parl website, but found it a tad difficult to navigate)

LOTM

	13-04-2002 00:39									#100
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I also note that the resolution passed by only 260 to 200 (or so). Does anyone know where I might find breakdowns by nationality and political grouping? (I tried the Euro parl website, but found it a tad difficult to navigate) LOTM

Germans, dutch, danish are traditionally the most "friendly" to Israel so they might have voted against.

in any case for anything EUropean

www.europa.eu.int

	13-04-2002 00:42									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Moral condemnation by the west is of small value against the Israelis, and of no value against the Palestinians." About zero value with both, I'd say. Sharon and Arafat have been strengthened dramatically with this escalation.

Read the Israeli press. Moral condemnation by the United States is a matter of great concern across the political spectrum. Moral condemnation by Western Europe is of zero value, as almost all Israelis (including most Labour supporters) consider western europe thoroughly biased against them.

LOTM

	13-04-2002 00:42									#102
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there you go:

Middle East - call for arms embargo and suspension of association agreement
Motions for resolutions on the situation in the Middle East
Doc.: B5-0194/2002, B5-0195/2002, B5-0196/2002, B5-0197/2002, B5-0198/2002, B5-0199/2002
Debate: 09.04.2002
Vote: 10.04.2002
Vote

Against the background of the escalating Middle East conflict, MEPs voted 269 to 208 with 22 abstentions in favour of a resolution urging full and immediate implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions 1397, 1402 and 1403, which call for the withdrawal of the Israeli army from the Palestinian territories, including Ramallah.

The resolution call on the Council to institute an arms embargo on Israel and Palestine and on the Commission and Council to suspend the EU-Israel Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement.

The resolution strongly condemns all indiscriminate terrorist attacks by suicide bombings against Israel and calls on the Palestinian Authority to make greater efforts to prevent acts of terrorism.

At the same time, it condemns the military escalation pursued by the Sharon government, the oppression of the Palestinian civilian population by the Israeli army and the systematic destruction of infrastructures on the West Bank. MEP make clear to the Israeli Government that Yasser Arafat must enjoy freedom of movement.

They deplore the refusal by Prime Minister Sharon to let the EU high-level delegation meet President Arafat. Looking to today's summit in Madrid between the EU, the United States, Russia and the UN, MEPs call for consideration to be given to the sending of an international peacekeeping and monitoring force to the region under UN auspices.

Parliament stresses the special responsibility of the USA in the crisis. It also welcomes the endorsement by the Arab League of the Saudi proposal, which it invites the Israeli Government to recognise as a turning point in the Arab states' attitude towards the conflict.

Lastly the resolution calls on Israel to guarantee the media free access to the occupied territories and to allow EU diplomatic and consular authorities to contact EU citizens in the area.

Prior to the vote EPP-ED leader Hans-Gert POETTERING (EPP-ED, D) said a majority in his group were opposed to the resolution as it stands.
Press enquiries:
Alexandre Stutzmann
(Strasbourg) tel.(33) 3 881 74005
(Brussels) tel.(32-2) 28 43439
e-mail : foreign-press@europarl.eu.int


http://www2.europarl.eu.int/omk/OM-...NAV=X#SECTION18

	13-04-2002 00:47									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Have those documents been presented to another, imparcial, entity other than the very same Government that started the attacks prior to have knowledge of these documents?

The documents have been presented to the United States.

But would it matter? Suppose those documents proved true? Would you or your govt disown arrafat? Or would you repeat that the palestinian terror is merely a result of "occupation", and so is no ground for turning from Arafat? until European govts make clear that this evidence would impact policy, why should it be shared with them?


LOTM

	13-04-2002 00:55									#104
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 there you go: Middle East - call for arms embargo and suspension of association agreement Motions for resolutions on the situation in the Middle East Doc.: B5-0194/2002, B5-0195/2002, B5-0196/2002, B5-0197/2002, B5-0198/2002, B5-0199/2002 Debate: 09.04.2002 Vote: 10.04.2002 Vote Against the background of the escalating Middle East conflict, MEPs voted 269 to 208 with 22 abstentions in favour of a resolution urging full and immediate implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions 1397, 1402 and 1403, which call for the withdrawal of the Israeli army from the Palestinian territories, including Ramallah. The resolution call on the Council to institute an arms embargo on Israel and Palestine and on the Commission and Council to suspend the EU-Israel Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement. The resolution strongly condemns all indiscriminate terrorist attacks by suicide bombings against Israel and calls on the Palestinian Authority to make greater efforts to prevent acts of terrorism. At the same time, it condemns the military escalation pursued by the Sharon government, the oppression of the Palestinian civilian population by the Israeli army and the systematic destruction of infrastructures on the West Bank. MEP make clear to the Israeli Government that Yasser Arafat must enjoy freedom of movement. They deplore the refusal by Prime Minister Sharon to let the EU high-level delegation meet President Arafat. Looking to today's summit in Madrid between the EU, the United States, Russia and the UN, MEPs call for consideration to be given to the sending of an international peacekeeping and monitoring force to the region under UN auspices. Parliament stresses the special responsibility of the USA in the crisis. It also welcomes the endorsement by the Arab League of the Saudi proposal, which it invites the Israeli Government to recognise as a turning point in the Arab states' attitude towards the conflict. Lastly the resolution calls on Israel to guarantee the media free access to the occupied territories and to allow EU diplomatic and consular authorities to contact EU citizens in the area. Prior to the vote EPP-ED leader Hans-Gert POETTERING (EPP-ED, D) said a majority in his group were opposed to the resolution as it stands. Press enquiries: Alexandre Stutzmann (Strasbourg) tel.(33) 3 881 74005 (Brussels) tel.(32-2) 28 43439 e-mail : foreign-press@europarl.eu.int http://www2.europarl.eu.int/omk/OM-...NAV=X#SECTION18

Thanks, (though I had seen that already)

Other than the EPP-ED (and just who are they, this inquring yank wants to know?) Im still not sure how the vote broke down, (other than assuming that Germans Dutch and Danes were against, French, Belgians, Spanish and Greeks were for, and that Communists, Greens, and Gaulists were for across nationality, that UK Tories against, and UK labour split) Do you guys not have sources for checking how your "representatives" in the EP voted? Or is the EP still of such limited power and relevance that you and your press dont really care? Or is the monitoring of the voting behavior of ones representatives such a "yank" thing?

LOTM

	13-04-2002 01:14									#105
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Thanks, (though I had seen that already)

Hmm, then I gues you want the official text with all the votes broken down... I'm a bit lazy to look for it now sorry but if the votes are broken down it is there in the first link I gave.

quote: Other than the EPP-ED (and just who are they, this inquring yank wants to know?)

hmm ok check here.


http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep5/ow...EN&iorig=&imsg=

quote: Im still not sure how the vote broke down, (other than assuming that Germans Dutch and Danes were against, French, Belgians, Spanish and Greeks were for, and that Communists, Greens, and Gaulists were for across nationality, that UK Tories against, and UK labour split)

hmm most of the times it doesn't go by country but by affiliation to the party.
for example european socialists will vote for something, european popular party will vote for something else etc.

quote: Do you guys not have sources for checking how your "representatives" in the EP voted? Or is the EP still of such limited power and relevance that you and your press dont really care?

hehe the second for now

	13-04-2002 01:27									#106
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Other than the EPP-ED (and just who are they, this inquring yank wants to know?)

oh and since it can be a little confusing (what with 11 official languages, acronyms changing etc) this party is the

Group of the European People's Party (Christian Democrats) and European Democrats


as you can see from the previous link it is the larger party in the european parliment (fooking rightists - sorry) and then are the european socialists

	13-04-2002 02:07									#107
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 hmm most of the times it doesn't go by country but by affiliation to the party. for example european socialists will vote for something, european popular party will vote for something else etc.

yeah, I understood that there were cross national groupings, like the Social democrats, christian democrats, etc with some groups hard to place (like the Gaulists) But i find it hard to believe that the German SD's would follow the French Socialists on an issue like this. I mean its not like the EU has an SD govt thats gonna stand or fall on the vote.

So if the large block of Christian Democrats mainly voted now, does that imply (given the numbers) that most Social Democrats voted yes?

LOTM

	13-04-2002 02:19									#108
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 oh and since it can be a little confusing (what with 11 official languages, acronyms changing etc) this party is the Group of the European People's Party (Christian Democrats) and European Democrats as you can see from the previous link it is the larger party in the european parliment (fooking rightists - sorry) and then are the european socialists

Thanks for the link - it is quite confusing
The christian dems, social dems, liberals, and greens i recognize - but who the hell are "nordic green leftists"? or a "europe of democracies and diversities"? One of these is the communists, but its hard to tell since that should have large numbers from both Italy and France - or have those parties gone there seperate ways based on different extents of reform?

And as for language - they seem to list the give the MP's title by their own national language M for french, sr for spanish, Mr for english etc - BUT they list HERR Cohn-Bendit (the only name i recognized, BTW) despite his French nationality -HMMMMMM?


LOTM