12-04-2002 06:31									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Felch X I don't know about you, but if I were an Israeli kid still in high school I'd be terrified of having to fight out in those camps.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't be scared of going into the camps, Felch. Only a fool or someone ignorant of reality wouldn't be scared of going into a combat zone. What I'm saying is that he is letting cowardice and selfishness get the better of him.

	12-04-2002 06:34									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW, according to some friends in the Army most of Canada could quickly be taken over by 1 Belgian paratroop division...

	12-04-2002 06:45									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Goingonit, that's technically true but the term "fundamentalist right" is misleading in this context because the Haredim (extremely pious Orthodox Jews) are not, for the most part, particularly interested in the conflict. The Haredi parties switch from one end of the spectrum to the other on the issue of peace negotiations, depending on whether the Left or the Right can deliver the funding and the welfare checks. Neither Shas nor UTJ has a policy on the matter, AFAIK neither even mentions the matter in their respective party platforms.

	12-04-2002 06:46									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sorry, my mistake. Fundamentalist moochers.

	12-04-2002 07:02									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MtG,

quote: No offense, but it's selfish cowards hiding behind high rhetoric of who've assisted in the downfall and destruction of the societies and cultures they're a part of. A lot of places in the world have no real security threats, or else have an abundance of people who will do their part, to cover for the selfish yellow-bellies. Some parts of the world don't have that luxury.

The presence or absence of a threat doesn't give any government license to institute slavery, which is what conscription is.

quote: There aren't any ****ing "natural rights" when you've got your back to the sea and a whole bunch of pissed off people with Kalashnikovs in your face who want to see you and your family and your people all swim.

Natural rights, by definition, exist no matter what.

quote: And what "natural rights" are those, DF? The right to **** around with other people because it's entertaining? Where did that "right" come from. Let's not go into your little escapade, shall we?

Hey, **** you. I'm sure you've NEVER done something stupid while drunk. But since this has no bearing on the conversation, let's leave this issue alone.

Seeker,

quote: BTW, according to some friends in the Army most of Canada could quickly be taken over by 1 Belgian paratroop division...

Which might be true if Belgium actually had any division-sized formations

DD,

quote: What I'm saying is that he is letting cowardice and selfishness get the better of him.

His primary responsibility us to protect his own life, not the lives of others. You call it cowardly, I call it a good, rational decision based on notions of logic and self-preservation.

Goingonit,

quote: DF: In Israel, AFAIK draft dodging identifies you with the fundamentalist right - if you go to a yeshiva (a religious school) you don't have to serve in the military.

Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

	12-04-2002 07:06									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The presence or absence of a threat doesn't give any government license to institute slavery, which is what conscription is.

Not in a population of immigrants. Hardly anyone has roots there, at best most people are 3rd generation immigrants. If you move to/live in Israel, the idea is that your military service is part of the deal - if you take advantage of Israel as a safe haven for Jews, you must defend it for all others who follow in your footsteps.

quote: Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

That's the easy way out. You are absconding your responsibility to defend the society in which you live.

BTW, I am not, nor will I ever be, in the military. This is because I live in a country that does not have any threat that would mandate a conscript army. That is why I would not move to Israel.

	12-04-2002 07:07									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You call it cowardly, I call it a good, rational decision based on notions of logic and self-preservation.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of cowardice, selfishness, and hypocrisy.

	12-04-2002 07:11									#38
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

Trust me, you'd want to leave the country. The religious schools are like colleges, except there's no drugs or women, booze comes only on holidays, and the only subjects are Talmud, Talmud commentary, and Kabbala.


goingonit: Bah!

	12-04-2002 07:20									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

http://www.mil.be/armycomp/units.asp?LAN=E

my mistake, brigade.

	12-04-2002 07:22									#40
	Remove this text

Yeah, so I'm a pedant. Sue me.

	12-04-2002 07:53									#41
	Remove this text

I think GC Scott said it best as Patton

"No poor, dumb b*st*rd ever won a war by dying for his country. He made that other poor, dumb b*s*trd die for his." Or something like that.

re Natural Rights. In a jungle the only rights are the right to eat and the right to be eaten.

	12-04-2002 08:45									#42
	Got spare money?

So you admit there is a fundamental right to life. Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

	12-04-2002 13:43									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The "fundamental" right to life ends after you draw your first breath. After that, you eat or be eaten if you live in a jungle.

Natural rights? Pfff. They are the artificial arguments of pampered people who have never had to face tough choices. The only rights any man or woman truely owns are the ones they are prepared to defend in the face of those who would deny them.

Are you going to stand up behind Siro when he tells the Israeli state that he shouldn't do his part when they live in an ocean of hatred? Didn't think so.

	12-04-2002 14:18									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are you going to stand up behind Siro when he tells the Israeli state that he shouldn't do his part when they live in an ocean of hatred? Didn't think so.

Siro is going to tell that to the Israeli government??
Maybe I missed something ...


On another note I sincerely hope he remembers, when singlehandedly facing off against a militant band of armed Palestinians, that most of them are probably more reasonable than people here.

	12-04-2002 14:45									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Natan, the fundamentalist parties have consistently shown hawkish tendencies and were pretty much always against peace and negotiation. Which is one of the many reasons why they are so much disliked by the secular guys - they are always for fighting, but they never fight.

Siro - Good Luck. They cut mine short a day before we were supposed to shoot stuff... I got all the annoying running around and stupid lectures, but no shooting. Dang
Don't let it happen to you. It probably won't.

People - just FYI: This camp thing is simply a kids' play... They make us run around for a while and then sit and listen to lectures. We also get some 11 bullets and an old M16 in a shooting range
So it's not the army, it's just a special camp to scare kids

~Mark

	12-04-2002 14:53									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: This camp thing is simply a kids' play... They make us run around for a while and then sit and listen to lectures. We also get some 11 bullets and an old M16 in a shooting range

Huh.. sounds like an American High School .

	12-04-2002 15:40									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Seeker BTW, according to some friends in the Army most of Canada could quickly be taken over by 1 Belgian paratroop division...

	12-04-2002 17:05									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And hopefully one day you'll be able to tell me why Israel has the most untidy and badly dressed soldiers in the world

Perhaps that's an impression you get because you usually see them "in action", with bombs going off left and right and real bullets flying around their ears?

Under such conditions, stuff like dress codes isn't exactly first on the list of priorities...

	12-04-2002 17:23									#49
	Remove this text

@ Imran....


and yes, our soldiers are not well dressed. After all , they see real action.

	12-04-2002 17:36									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: Any advice from the military pros? Throw the grenade, drop the pin. Don't mix those up.

This is very important. Memorize it.

	12-04-2002 18:14									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

you'd be surprised how often soldiers do the opposite

	12-04-2002 18:26									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've never seen one do it.
And I never want to ....

	12-04-2002 18:28									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Although it would be funny...
(for a movie or something!)

	12-04-2002 18:31									#54
	Put an end to popups!

Be careful they don't kill you.

	12-04-2002 18:32									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

just testing this quick reply feature. if we have got this, couldn't we extend it and drop that old button sh!t?

	12-04-2002 18:34									#56
	Got spare money?

Grenades are funny.
(testing quick reply)

	12-04-2002 22:24									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

isn't it a cool feature?

it should have message icons and titles.

and the buttons should be removed

	13-04-2002 02:28									#58
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Weep for the dead Siro.

Hey!

It's not army yet - just a boyscout like training session to reduce the shock when I finally get drafted.

Anyhoo, I plan to ask for delay to get a first degree in Computer Science, and then serve in some technological unit or perhaps intelligence.

quote: Just remember Siro - being an offcier is a HUGE chick magnet

Not here, where everyone's an officer.

Here the following things are magnets:

1. Pilots
2. Special Operations (Egoz, Duvdevan, Shayetet 17, Sayeret Matcal etc). (all names of special commando groups)
3. Navy Seals (though some were infected by cancer due to training in polluted water in the 80s).
4. People who can't tell you what they did (intelligence or spies)

quote: Easy to say as an American. I don't know about you, but if I were an Israeli kid still in high school I'd be terrified of having to fight out in those camps. I'm not intending to bash on you, Dino, but it's just not a situation I think you've been in, and you shouldn't be passing judgement on somebody who is in it.

Well, going to the army is kinda scary.

But this experience will be fun I think.

quote: The presence or absence of a threat doesn't give any government license to institute slavery, which is what conscription is.

So basically you want the government to offer you safety, but you're not willing to give your hand to the fight?

Very moral

quote: Natural rights, by definition, exist no matter what.

Natural rights are an idiocy invented by people who are too used to their good livin'.

quote: His primary responsibility us to protect his own life, not the lives of others. You call it cowardly, I call it a good, rational decision based on notions of logic and self-preservation.

Self preservation of my society is higher in importance than my own.

You know, a russian scientist did a reasearch once about the reason why Neanderthals got extinct.

One of his findings was that Neanderthals had no people who were ready to sacrifice one-self for the good of society.
Each person thought of himself alone, and thus the whole species disintigrated.

Obviously I will usually think of my self first, but I will not, ever, leave my familiy / friends / country men to die and run off.

quote: Natural rights? Pfff. They are the artificial arguments of pampered people who have never had to face tough choices. The only rights any man or woman truely owns are the ones they are prepared to defend in the face of those who would deny them.

quote: Natan, the fundamentalist parties have consistently shown hawkish tendencies and were pretty much always against peace and negotiation. Which is one of the many reasons why they are so much disliked by the secular guys - they are always for fighting, but they never fight.

I thought so too, but I noticed recently that Shas and Mafdal are one of the most responsible parties around.

Shas leader Eli Yishai always judges the situation objectively and rationally. Even if his supporters don't serve.

	13-04-2002 02:30									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Dalgetti youwere there, what do I expect?

	13-04-2002 02:30									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov 2. Special Operations (Egoz, Duvdevan, Shayetet 17, Sayeret Matcal etc). (all names of special commando groups) 3. Navy Seals (though some were infected by cancer due to training in polluted water in the 80s).

Ummm...
The "Navy seals" are Shayetet 13. Shayetet 17 doesnt exist.