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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
...They can make the rules, and change them on a whim... It's THEIR site. It doesn't have to be fair.
It's really that simple. |
Sure they can. Clearly they do. But whether they SHOULD or not is really the issue.
Most people try to live their lives according to reasonable standards of fairness. Most organizations, even most message forums, also adhere to reasonable standards of fairness. So expectations for appropriate behavior are fairly high. But somehow most people and organizations manage to meet them. Arbitrary behavior is fraught with negative consequences and is usually a bad idea. Perhaps some people will never believe that, perhaps they will eventually learn...
quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
Now you can both(Hermans and Robroy) take this post apart all you like - it will not change anything and will not stop me posting here for people that dont want to use the Official EU Forums. |
Well I'd be happy to take the post apart if you'd actually responded, but since you didn't...
LOL, that's pretty clever, though, implying that someone was trying to stop YOU from posting! If your tongue was firmly in cheek, I'd say you were quite amusing, but I suspect you're completely oblivious to the irony there.
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WFHermans
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Yes ,we're not bigots like you mr Duck. Post anything you like, even stuff that the Swedish laws don't condone.
And Ming is correct in saying that boards can ban whoever they like, giving no reason at all, as they did with me. (Although commercially it's a BAD idea because people will distrust you and stop buying whatever it is you sell,) An exception would be if I would pay $50 to Ming for a year of fulltime reading the forum (because I want to write a thesis about it) and he kicks me out then, although we had an agreement.
I wouldn't sue for the lousy 50 bucks, but I would warn others not to trust mr Ming.
Last edited by WFHermans on 19-04-2002 at 15:37
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
...the Paradox staff are considerably more approachable and informative there than Firaxis or the CtP team ever have been here. Airing your personal grievances with them on this site won't change it or players opinions.... |
Actually the Paradox staff aren't as approachable as you suggest, especially if you dare to criticize a (non-staff) forum moderator (regardless of how inappropriate the moderator's behavior may have been).
Not sure what you're getting at regarding airing of grievances, though. Are you trying to discourage people from doing so? Or pointing to the lack of efficacy? Or just impugning the quality of other people's grievances?
"Daring the mods...". I wonder if that would be his interpretation of his actions? Seems to me I've seen people trying to tar other posters with that accusation in other situations. But if you think it's silly to carry on an argument in an different venue, why are you doing so?
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by RobRoy
Actually the Paradox staff aren't as approachable as you suggest, especially if you dare to criticize a (non-staff) forum moderator (regardless of how inappropriate the moderator's behavior may have been).
Not sure what you're getting at regarding airing of grievances, though. Are you trying to discourage people from doing so? Or pointing to the lack of efficacy? Or just impugning the quality of other people's grievances?
"Daring the mods...". I wonder if that would be his interpretation of his actions? Seems to me I've seen people trying to tar other posters with that accusation in other situations. But if you think it's silly to carry on an argument in an different venue, why are you doing so? |
Because YOU insist on doing so! Basicly what bugs everyone who is comming from the Paradox board is that you continue to badmouth the people at Paradox every chance you get, and this could mislead people deciding if they should get EU2. The fact of the matter is that the game programers routinely respond to questions asked about EU2, and even listen to people's requests when determining what features will be offered in future games. I.E. Crusader Kings will have a feature to convert games to EU2, so that people are able to play from 1066 to 1820 as many EU2 board members have requested. Don't you have anything better to do than constantly post on this message forum how horrible Paradox and the mods there are?
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
Because YOU insist on doing so! |
LOL. I did not insist on being banned, though you seem fond of assertions to the contrary. But I'm not the one calling this issue "silly" - clearly I feel it is among the most fundamental issues for a message board. I just don't understand why people who perceive it as "silly" like to come over here and rekindle things that might otherwise die a natural death?
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...you continue to badmouth the people at Paradox every chance you get, and this could mislead people deciding if they should get EU2. |
(yawn) you're getting repetitive. You continue to say so, but it simply isn't true. Please enlighten me as to when I have "badmouthed" the people at Paradox. I've been pointing out some serious flaws in the behavior of a certain forum moderator, if that's what you keep referring to. But he's pretty quick to point out that he doesn't work for Paradox. And, not that you'd ever notice, but I've had many more opportunities to "badmouth" him than I've pursued. I've said nothing but positive things about the game itself, but why would I want to mislead people about a significant shortcoming in the overall gaming experience (meaning the less-than-perfect "official" forum).
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
The fact of the matter is that the game programers routinely respond to questions asked about EU2, and even listen to people's requests when determining what features will be offered in future games... |
One would have to be able to access the forum to ask such questions, wouldn't one? One cannot ask such questions if one has been banned for a violation of forum rules, can one? Banning can occur for violations of unwritten rules and ex post facto rules, can't it? A (new) forum rule is that you cannot publicly question ANY moderator behavior, no matter how egregrious, isn't it? You may not have a problem with all this. I do.
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
Don't you have anything better to do than constantly post on this message forum how horrible...the mods there are? |
You're asking the wrong questions. Don't the mods have anything better to do than ban conscientous posters who simply point out weaknesses in their policies and behavior? Don't you have anything better to do than defend such an egregious over-reaction? Don't you have anything better to do than constantly imply that my issues with moderator mis-behavior are blanket attacks upon the game and/or the entire company.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuberski
....And RobRoy before you defend WFHermans anymore, you should probably know he was banned from here for the same kind of crap. |
Thanks for the info, but I'm not defending him. I'm defending myself. His behavior may have been egregious and warranted a permanent ban, mine didn't.
I wouldn't actually mind being banned if I had actually had the pleasure of disobeying their rules. But I didn't (unless you count their unwritten or ex post facto rules). So don't count on avoiding a ban, just because you think you are adhering to the forum rules...you might not be. If you really care, the two posts that got me banned are probably still out there, unless they've been edited or deleted.
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by RobRoy
LOL. Funny I was just thinking MY point had been made. Let's see:
- one forum permanently bans people for engaging in some pretty mild questioning of moderator actions;
- another forum allows an extremist wide lattitude before temporarily banning him, meanwhile allowing/encouraging extensive discussion of the moderator(s) actions and forum standards.
I'm highly skeptical that your (surprisingly large) mod squad would know how to deal reasonably with the grilling Mark and Ming receive here on a regular basis. Well, short of banning everyone, that is... |
You can spin it any way you want, but I saw you repeately post and question the mod's decision to move a topic to a different forum. Frankly I have seen some discussions regarding bannings before, and you make the EU2 board moderators out to be alot thinner skinned then they actually are. Incidentally many people who posted on that thread at Apolyton felt that he should be banned permantly. A significant difference between the two sites is that Paradox can actually be held legally liable if they continued to let WFHermans post anti-semitic comments on their board. When someone gets banned from both boards for anti-semitic comments, it does not support your case that one of the boards was being unreasonable.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
You can spin it any way you want, but I saw you repeately post and question the mod's decision to move a topic to a different forum. |
Perhaps you need to see it again, or reread the responses to the allegations you keep repeating here. I posted ONE time questioning the mod's decision to move a thread, to forbid discussion on forum posting rules, and to forbid ALL public criticism of moderator behavior. That post included some details on the original issue, if that's your point, but that was because the moderator professed surprise and ignorance at what the issue was (should I have assumed he was being rhetorical or disingenuous?)
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...you make the EU2 board moderators out to be alot thinner skinned then they actually are... |
Glad your perceptions are more positive. Based on my unpleasant experience, I have been quite generous. FYI, I'm only talking about one individual, the reason I tend to group them together (my there are a lot of them, though) is because they seem so quick to close ranks and so eager to defend inappropriate or questionable behavior, rather than question one of their own or consider the possibility of error (hmmm...sounds familiar). To be honest, I have never encountered a thinner skin or lower tolerance anywhere, either in real life or on the net (perhaps I need to get out more).
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...Incidentally many people who posted on that thread at Apolyton felt that he should be banned permantly... |
And I might even agree. But why are you oblivious to the point that such a discussion is accepted/expected here, but seems to be forbidden there?
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...A significant difference between the two sites is that Paradox can actually be held legally liable if they continued to let WFHermans post anti-semitic comments on their board... |
Perhaps...I know little of international law, less of his comments, and nothing of Swedish law. Perhaps you do.
I think a more interesting difference between the two sites is that the more tolerant one is truly private, meaning it has few restrictions on how it can behave (under U.S. law). Whereas the site that tolerates no public criticism and is quick to ban, is actually a "public accomodation", being the company's venue for providing technical and user support, rules addendum, patches, expansions, etc. to paying customers. In the U.S., at least, public accomodations are under quite a few restrictions regarding reasonable and acceptable behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...When someone gets banned from both boards for anti-semitic comments, it does not support your case that one of the boards was being unreasonable. |
one site - lenient (temporary) punishment for an extreme infraction
other site - draconian punishment (permanent ban) for...for...well actually, there was no infraction, unless you count the rule added after my banning.
I guess some people see only what they want to see.
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Ming
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
A light has dawned on me. The reason Ming doesn't perma-ban is that it prevents him banning the offender again, and again, and again. 
 |
Cute...
*but I didn't ban him... MtG did  *
I would like to add that I think it's VERY important that Mods on a forum do stick together. If they start disagreeing with each other, and over ruling each other, it's a disaster waiting to happen.
I don't always agree with actions taken by other Mods here, and I'm sure others don't always agree with me. Here, we stand by whatever decision is made by the first person to the scene. While we may discuss it in our staff forum, or by PM, it's imperative that we support each other in public, or people will start playing us off each other.
It is very rare when we change a decision that was made by somebody else. However, a mod that made the decision is always welcome to go back and change his mind after talking it out with the people involved. It is key that a mod's authority is final...
So don't abuse mods for supporting (or in some cases, just not commenting on a situation) the other mods. It has to be done that way.
And as far as trying to point out the differences between two different sites... a waste of energy. The rules here have evolved over time, based on the owners overall philosphy... that of the mods... and the general attitude of the members. Different enviornments require different rules and actions. We welcome debate, and don't mind if people think we are wrong (because it really doesn't matter... because we can do what we want)
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16-04-2002 05:38
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