19-04-2002 21:42									#271
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Enough writing on Muslims to night. Tomorow I will quote you some verset, if I have time and courage ...

Now look at this thread : http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47341

U will see that is easy to tell BS on religious text. The same BS you say about the muslim prophet.

See u tomorow.

	19-04-2002 21:48									#272
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I'm not so much pro-Christian as anti-Religion... especially based on the nonsense texts that the religions are so proud of.

I don't care what BS is in the bible, in terms of this discussion... about Islamic attitudes to women. Especially with regard to good old Mo.

No matter what you do, you can't unwrite the bad bits of the koran or undo the 23 marriages.

	20-04-2002 01:27									#273
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So Muhammed was bad to women in 600 AD... OMG! Everyone else was enlightened towards them, right?

The fact of the matter is that the treatment of women in Islam was much better than it was in just about any other (at that time, modern) civilization.

	20-04-2002 01:35									#274
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No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women. Jesus was apparently a saint towards women comparitively to Mo. If they ever actually existed that is... [EDIT Jesus and Mo' that is... not women ]

Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia... whereas Islam really hasn't. To do so would be revisionist... which is a big problem.

Women undoubtedly have the best deal in non-religious sectarian societies.

	20-04-2002 01:43									#275
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quote: No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women.

Ask Christian women (before modern times) about that .

quote: Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia

Yes, when you have 1800 or so years of the same religion, things tend to get changed. Islam is too young to go through all the reform movements. They may be coming, but at the same time, the religion is still fairly new.

	20-04-2002 01:47									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women. Ask Christian women (before modern times) about that . quote: Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia Yes, when you have 1800 or so years of the same religion, things tend to get changed. Islam is too young to go through all the reform movements. They may be coming, but at the same time, the religion is still fairly new.

We're getting away from the point.

What I contend is Mo' wrote this stuff in the Koran... are you saying its not there?

Would you suggest that the points I raised don't indicate that Mo' had 'problems with women'?

	20-04-2002 01:50									#278
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1) There have been crimes against humanity committed by some Christians, and there have been humanistic progress carried out by some Christians.

2) There have been crimes against humanity committed by some Mulsims, and there have been some humanistic progress carried out by some Muslims.

	20-04-2002 01:51									#279
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When did I ever say that?

The fact is that women in 1000 under Islam were MUCH better off than women in the Christian realm (and in most other civilizations of the world as well).

	20-04-2002 01:57									#280
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You posted in response to me... I was talking about what a bastard Mo was... not a comparison of Christianity vs Islam... it does remain however, that there isn't the same evidence that Jesus or his disciples proposed such shitty behavior towards women.

Now were conditions for women different for Christians and Islamic women 1000 years ago? Possibly, but the point isn't provable one way or another... unless you have discovered some form of time travel. The point is not worth arguing... its moot.

We can look at contemporary societies... like say... Afghan women... and compare them to say... Italian women.

Whom would you say has more equality?

	20-04-2002 02:01									#281
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quote: it does remain however, that there isn't the same evidence that Jesus or his disciples proposed such shitty behavior towards women.

Yes, but the Church did.

quote: We can look at contemporary societies... like say... Afghan women... and compare them to say... Italian women.

Why don't you pick a more equitable example (ie, one that doesn't show your bias.

How about Turkish women compared to Italian women?

	20-04-2002 02:04									#282
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I'm discussing the Koran vs. the Old and New Testaments... going right to the source.

---

I was picking an example with fundamental Islamic views I.E. the Taliban regime vs. fundamental Catholic views

You just don't like the example because it destroys your argument.

[EDIT to further the argument of why I picked Afganistan... it is (or was) a culture where non-islamic practices were banned and hence is a better example than Turkey, which includes a great deal of secular influences, and a certain degree of diversity. Turkey would be an absolute best case scenario]

	20-04-2002 02:15									#283
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quote: The fact is that women in 1000 under Islam were MUCH better off than women in the Christian realm (and in most other civilizations of the world as well).

while I am not so sure of this being a 'fact' , my argument stands. There is MUCH more dinamic in western thinking.

Islam has been around as a religion for around 1200 years. Christianity (on a massive scale ) around 1800 . It's not a very huge gap.

quote: How about Turkish women compared to Italian women?

....
that's not comparable. Turkey is much more liberal relatively to other muslim/arab countries , than Italy is to Christians.

I'd put Italy around upper-middle , with Turkey nearing the top, in its respective "category".

	20-04-2002 02:20									#284
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You're arguing with a hobbit? Who cares what a hobbit thinks?

	20-04-2002 02:22									#285
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quote: I was picking an example with fundamental Islamic views I.E. the Taliban regime vs. fundamental Catholic views

Italy?? Fundamentalist Catholic? LOLOLOL

	20-04-2002 02:23									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I was picking an example with fundamental Islamic views I.E. the Taliban regime vs. fundamental Catholic views Italy?? Fundamentalist Catholic? LOLOLOL

So point out how they aren't?

The church virtually owns the state.

If what you say is correct... you should be able to prove that Italian women are somehow worse off comparitively to men, than Afghan women are to Afghan men. Will you just answer that question?

	20-04-2002 02:27									#287
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MrBaggins : Italy is a liberal state. The church doesn't own it. however , and it must be said , Could you point out a christian country that is fundamentalist? ( USA doesn't count )

	20-04-2002 02:29									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti MrBaggins : Italy is a liberal state. The church doesn't own it. however , and it must be said , Could you point out a christian country that is fundamentalist? ( USA doesn't count )

The Italian have more Catholics per square inch than any other country.

There isn't any such thing as a fundamental Catholic in the Islamic sense... although Italy's social policy is almost in lock step with the Church.

Including the bit about siding with Hitler

	20-04-2002 02:31									#289
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That was the point I was making Dalgetti.

There really aren't any fundamentalist Christian states. That comes from the longevity of Christianity. People get tired with it. People will get tired with fundamentalist Islam as well, and new things will come out of it.

	20-04-2002 02:34									#290
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It's not that much of an age gap , Imran . only 600 years or so.

	20-04-2002 04:34									#291
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quote: It's not that much of an age gap , Imran . only 600 years or so.

We aren't talking about Jewish history here which is like 6000 years old .

It is quite an age gap. Remember the US is only 226 years old, and look how far it has come since the beginning!

	20-04-2002 04:35									#292
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if islam has had 1400 years to fix its issues, then, why hasn't it?

	20-04-2002 04:43									#293
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Why was Christianity so backwards in 1400 AD? Why didn't it fix its issues?

	20-04-2002 04:46									#294
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because society hadn't yet been secularized.

Abandoning religious teachings seems to be the only way to go...

	20-04-2002 04:48									#295
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And in 1400 years of Islam, society hasn't been secularized.

Don't create a double standard for Islam and Christianity.

	20-04-2002 04:49									#296
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Well they've tried... but it hasn't really worked out.

Islam teaches that there needs to be religious nations as far as I'm aware.

	20-04-2002 04:54									#297
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Also their instruction book, the Koran is far more inciteful toward women...

	20-04-2002 05:08									#298
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America is still in the lead.

	20-04-2002 09:36									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion America is still in the lead.

I haven't seen many of those 20 or so people try to make their case. They just vote and scurry away.

	20-04-2002 10:16									#300
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Including the bit about siding with Hitler

The Church never sided with Hitler.