16-04-2002 02:35									#1
	Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here's an interesting question for the ever-knowledgeable Apolyton crew to discuss. Which Civilization has proven to be the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history? And this is discussing things in the grander scheme of things, so if you think the French are snobby, save it for another thread.

My personal pick are the Spaniards, no offense to our honorable Spanish members of course. But I think things such as the destruction of the new world civilizations, and the inquistion speak for themselves. Of course, I'm sure that a good case can be made for several other civilzations though.

	16-04-2002 02:40									#2
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Where's the Israel option?

I just can't decide

	16-04-2002 02:42									#3
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The Vikings. They aer very warlike and expand reasonably good..but not great.

Either squash them early or wait until the end game when you are killing everybody.

Don't let them bog you down in the mid game.

	16-04-2002 02:46									#4
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I vote for the Mongols .

	16-04-2002 02:46									#5
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Good point by Imran, where are the Mongols?

	16-04-2002 03:06									#6
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Oh man, I forgot the Mongols and Vikings!
Man, that's what always happens with these polls.
If a moderator could find it in his heart of hearts to edit the civs as to add the Mongols and Vikings, I would be eternally in his debt.

	16-04-2002 03:20									#7
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Japan. All other modern countries despite their level of ... "improprieties" ... at some point face the music, apologize, incorporate these mistakes into lessons not to repeat. The Japanese (gov't not people) not only will not face the music, but soft peddles history to its school children so that the attrocities they committed will , down the road, only be seen as a vague foreign spawned myth.

	16-04-2002 03:29									#8
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Mongols. Thw populations of China, Middle East and Europe decreased markedly due to their attacks.

	17-04-2002 05:21									#9
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Aren't the Americans not a civilization?

	17-04-2002 05:27									#10
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Islam is the answer.

For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim.

No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states.

A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

	17-04-2002 05:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Islam is the answer. For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim. No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states. A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

Learned it from the Crusaders, who ate kids in the holy land.

	17-04-2002 05:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Islam is the answer. For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim. No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states. A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

Do you think Christians were any better off?

I would nominate Mongols though. Despite all the crimes committed by Christians, Muslims, East Asians, Hindus, and etc, they also had major contributions to the humanity, the only contributions Mongols made to humanities were murder, rape, and pillage.

	17-04-2002 05:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin Learned it from the Crusaders, who ate kids in the holy land.

Ass-backwards history on your part, the crusades were an answer to Muslim agression.

	17-04-2002 05:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend Do you think Christians were any better off?

The question was "who was the worst', was it not?
I love how everybody leaps to defend Muslims, when there history is so foul.

quote: I would nominate Mongols though. Despite all the crimes committed by Christians, Muslims, East Asians, Hindus, and etc, they also had major contributions to the humanity, the only contributions Mongols made to humanities were murder, rape, and pillage.

Common misconception, Mongol rule was neither oppressive or criminal, in fact, they oppened trade routes to Europe and the west long closed in their brief span of pre-eminence.

Their rep comes from their ferocity towards those who would not submit to them.

	17-04-2002 05:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The question was "who was the worst', was it not? I love how everybody leaps to defend Muslims, when there history is so foul.

What do you propose? Go ahead and exterminate them? Just because they suck today doesn't mean they sucked 1000 years ago.

quote: Common misconception, Mongol rule was neither oppressive or criminal, in fact, they oppened trade routes to Europe and the west long closed in their brief span of pre-eminence. Their rep comes from their ferocity towards those who would not submit to them.

Why should other people submit to those foul-smelling and illiterate bastards? They were not repressive? Go and learn some Chinese and Russian history.

	17-04-2002 05:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Islam is the answer. For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim. No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states. A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

You made a basic over-generalization by stating that Muslims do not get along with people who are different. Let's look at part of their history:

1) Islam was inspired as a religion, by Christianity

2) Islamic cities after the collaspse of the Roman Empire preserved the heritage of knowledge and achievements of ancient Greece and Rome, along with Catholic monasteries

3) Jews fled with Arabs and Muslims from Spain during the Reconquest, since the Jews would not face the harsh persecution that was spreading throughout Europe at the time

4) Muslims and Arabs are not the sole race, religion, or civilization for conducting war and conquest --- they conquered SE Europe in the same spirit that Europeans at that time sought to conquer other areas

You need to balance your persepctive on the history of Christianity and Islam by noting the good and the bad from BOTH religions and their corresponding civilizations.


Oh, and I voted for England.

	17-04-2002 05:52									#17
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FRANCE - - - Our most worthless ally.

	17-04-2002 05:52									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend What do you propose? Go ahead and exterminate them? Just because they suck today doesn't mean they sucked 1000 years ago.

I have, many times.
In that period they were busy trying to assimilate Spain and the Balkans, while mowing down the states in India.
Real friendly.

quote: Why should other people submit to those foul-smelling and illiterate bastards? They were not repressive? Go and learn some Chinese and Russian history.

You should learn some history son, the Russians of the period were just as foul and smelly, and China's Sung were little better.

If you want to talk history, bring it on, you think you know more about it then I do wise guy....

	17-04-2002 05:54									#19
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Chris, read my post --- you are the one who seems to be presenting a one-side, biased view with Islam.

You need to learn some history.

	17-04-2002 05:55									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The question was "who was the worst', was it not? I love how everybody leaps to defend Muslims, when there history is so foul.

Foul?

Don't judge a civilization by what they did in only 50 out of 1500 years of history.

Between 700-1600, Islam was vastly more advanced than Christianity, scientifically, culturally, morally.

Much of algebra was invented by them. They crisscrossed the Indian Ocean long before Columbus. Half the stars in the sky were named by them. They are the one who enthusiastically picked up Indian numerals.

They allowed Christian minorities to survive and flourish. That's why there're still Christian communities, centuries old, in Egypt and Lebanon. The Christians on the other hand allowed no Muslim community. At all.

At the height of Muslim civilization, Baghdad, Alexandria and Granada easily had populations up to a million, while Paris barely had 50,000. They preserved Greek and Roman literary works while the Christians burnt them.

The Crusades was a massive barbaric act of aggression by Christians on Muslims. If that's really hard to imagine, just think of today's world, or what you perceive to be today's world - reversed. You'll have a better idea of the relationship between Christians and Muslims then.

If we go by number of years, then Islam is far more tolerant and open than Christianity.

As I said. don't judge a civilization by what they did in 50 out of 1500 years.

A little essay on this topic:

http://zompist.com/rants.html#60

	17-04-2002 05:57									#21
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Very true, ranskaldan.

Chris, you are very close to coming across as a bigot.

	17-04-2002 05:57									#22
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ranskaldan, you pointed some things that I have already posted. But now let's see if Chris has some precious time to read your post, and my post.

	17-04-2002 06:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You made a basic over-generalization by stating that Muslims do not get along with people who are different.

Not at all, it's the verdict of History, Islam has consistantly attacked it's non-Islamic neibhors through out history, in fact, the Black slave trade in Africa was intiated by Islam.

quote: Let's look at part of their history:

Yes, lets.

quote: 1) Islam was inspired as a religion, by Christianity

No, Mohammed claims that God spoke to him as his last prophet, and added the clever device of saying that he was the last such prohit, so he could never be corected or changed.
His notion was to disreguard all of the new testatment to be replaced by his teachings, the Koran.

quote: 2) Islamic cities after the collaspse of the Roman Empire preserved the heritage of knowledge and achievements of ancient Greece and Rome, along with Catholic monasteries

You don't know what you talking about, western Rome fell in the 5th century, Mohammed comes in the 8th century, unless the Islamics had a time machine.

quote: 3) Jews fled with Arabs and Muslims from Spain during the Reconquest, since the Jews would not face the harsh persecution that was spreading throughout Europe at the time

Which has nothing to do with the topic.
You might add that they were allowed to live in a Muslim state by paying THREE times the taxes of other citizens, a non-Islamic tax.
The Christians considered them colaberators (and they are also crazy, but that's another story) so had no problem killing them.

quote: 4) Muslims and Arabs are not the sole race, religion, or civilization for conducting war and conquest --- they conquered SE Europe in the same spirit that Europeans at that time sought to conquer other areas

We are talking about the biggest bastards in history, they fit the bill.

quote: You need to balance your persepctive on the history of Christianity and Islam by noting the good and the bad from BOTH religions and their corresponding civilizations.

The thread isn't about the possitives, it's about the biggest bastards in History, Islam is it by every criteria you care to name.

quote: Oh, and I voted for England.

Oh, and every British monarch and government were exactly the same?

Talk about generalizations.

	17-04-2002 06:04									#24
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quote: If we go by number of years, then Islam is far more tolerant and open than Christianity.

Especially to the Jews .

The scientific learning between Muslims and Jews in Southern Spain and Baghdad was amazing. Algebra, astrology, and the most advanced mapmaking of the age. The Europeans wouldn't be able to come close in technology until the 1600s... and they would use a lot of Islamic learning. The Renaissance came from Italy because it was the most influenced by Islamic learning through trade, and also the history of the Mezzogiorno.

	17-04-2002 06:06									#25
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quote: western Rome fell in the 5th century, Mohammed comes in the 8th century

That's nice, unfortunetly most of Roman learning at the time was in the Eastern Empire... and after the fall of Rome, the West forgot most of it, and it was basically lost to them until Islamic learning reached them.

And you call yourself a historian... I call you a bigot.

	17-04-2002 06:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Not at all, it's the verdict of History, Islam has consistantly attacked it's non-Islamic neibhors through out history, in fact, the Black slave trade in Africa was intiated by Islam.Yes, lets.

Name a civilization that hasn't consistently attacked its neighbors throughout history

quote: No, Mohammed claims that God spoke to him as his last prophet, and added the clever device of saying that he was the last such prohit, so he could never be corected or changed. His notion was to disreguard all of the new testatment to be replaced by his teachings, the Koran.

Ah... but Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, though not the Son of God.
Christians regard Mohammed as a downright heretic.

quote: You don't know what you talking about, western Rome fell in the 5th century, Mohammed comes in the 8th century, unless the Islamics had a time machine.

Actually, the Muslims did.
Much of Greek writing is passed down to us in Arabic.

quote: You might add that they were allowed to live in a Muslim state by paying THREE times the taxes of other citizens, a non-Islamic tax.

Well, they were at least allowed to live.
The Muslims were driven OUT. Or killed. Or forced to convert.

quote: We are talking about the biggest bastards in history, they fit the bill. The thread isn't about the possitives, it's about the biggest bastards in History, Islam is it by every criteria you care to name.

Why?
How are they consistently worse than all other civilizations??
Note the word *consistent*.
The question isn't, who are the biggest bastards in 2001?
In which case, you have a good point.
The question is, who are the biggest bastards of all time?

quote: Oh, and every British monarch and government were exactly the same? Talk about generalizations.

You're the one who's generalizing Muslims and Muslim governments, not us .

	17-04-2002 06:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 No, Mohammed claims that God spoke to him as his last prophet, and added the clever device of saying that he was the last such prohit, so he could never be corected or changed. His notion was to disreguard all of the new testatment to be replaced by his teachings, the Koran.

At least he was less megalomanical than Jesus who claimed to be the son of the God.

quote: You don't know what you talking about, western Rome fell in the 5th century, Mohammed comes in the 8th century, unless the Islamics had a time machine.

While the christianized Europeans and Byzantines were busy destroying their ancestor's knowledge as pagan, Muslims actually spent some effort saving the books. The Crusade brought many manuscripts back from the Middle East which had a major effect on the Renaissance later on.

quote: Which has nothing to do with the topic. You might add that they were allowed to live in a Muslim state by paying THREE times the taxes of other citizens, a non-Islamic tax. The Christians considered them colaberators (and they are also crazy, but that's another story) so had no problem killing them.

At least they didn't have to suffer through countless inquisitions and pogromes.

quote: The thread isn't about the possitives, it's about the biggest bastards in History, Islam is it by every criteria you care to name.

If you count out positives, Christian Europeans were the biggest bastard in human history. The extermination of Native Americans alone paled both the Mongolian and Islamic atrocities.

	17-04-2002 06:15									#28
	Which Civ has been the biggest bunch of bastards? Put an end to popups!

I'll play it safe and say The Human Civilization.

	17-04-2002 06:16									#29
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Hmmm, I do have to say though that I guess it is a decent troll.

7/10

	17-04-2002 06:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Foul?

Yes, foul, stop trying to be a muslim apologist, it doesn't hold water.

quote: Don't judge a civilization by what they did in only 50 out of 1500 years of history.

Why not?
It's what people do when they say the Mongols or England, isn't?
Why different standards?

quote: Between 700-1600, Islam was vastly more advanced than Christianity, scientifically, culturally, morally.

The morally part is incorrect, the other two aern't, if you exclude the Byzantines, who certainly were Christians, so we see another generalization in the defense of Islam..
Between 700-1600 one Sultan after another persued a war of agression against the Balkans and the Byzantines, or doesn't that matter to you?

quote: Much of algebra was invented by them. They crisscrossed the Indian Ocean long before Columbus. Half the stars in the sky were named by them. They are the one who enthusiastically picked up Indian numerals.

The thread is biggest bastards, not the good done by each society.
I can list impressive acchivments by any civ on the list, what would it prove?

quote: They allowed Christian minorities to survive and flourish.

Only by a blood tax, and in the balkans they siezed christian children to be brought up and serve as their Jannisaries, a true form of salvery.
Very enlightened.

quote: That's why there're still Christian communities, centuries old, in Egypt and Lebanon. The Christians on the other hand allowed no Muslim community. At all.

Best look at Spain again, seems some survived, as they did in the Balkans.

quote: At the height of Muslim civilization, Baghdad, Alexandria and Granada easily had populations up to a million, while Paris barely had 50,000. They preserved Greek and Roman literary works while the Christians burnt them.

They also destroyed as much as they preserved, and the inverse is also true.
I'm accused of generalizing, yet all I see are generalizations here.

quote: The Crusades was a massive barbaric act of aggression by Christians on Muslims. If that's really hard to imagine, just think of today's world, or what you perceive to be today's world - reversed. You'll have a better idea of the relationship between Christians and Muslims then.

Try again, nothing matches the spread of Islam from about 700 foward, where it was halted in france.
The Crusades wern't the "massive barbaric act" that revisionists try to paint them as, they were the culmination of at that time 4 centuries of hatred of Muslim aggression.

quote: If we go by number of years, then Islam is far more tolerant and open than Christianity.

And when did this become a comparison?
That statement is also false, BTW.

quote: As I said. don't judge a civilization by what they did in 50 out of 1500 years.

Sorry, but Muslim agression streches centuries, as I already shown, unless you deny events such as the siege of vienna in the 17th century, or the fall of Constantanople in 1453.
In other words sir, your talking out your backside.