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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalgetti
the flashbacks. Do they still haunt you? |
Melodies Haunt You
I need to open up my eyes
To see what's in there, deep inside
I've got to find out for myself
'Cos there is no-one, there's no-one else
I'd wait for a thousand years to see what you would do
I ain't got a thousand years, so what are you going to do?
I need to venture out much more
To get much closer, the need is pure
I won't regret a moment from this day
The key of life is calling out to stay
I'd wait for a thousand years to see what you would do
I ain't got a thousand years, now what are you going to do?
I can't find out why, the way you're treating me, you'll die
Those melodies haunt you, they make no sound
Those melodies haunt you when there's no one around
Those melodies haunt you
They make no sound
I can't find out why, the way you're treating me, you'll die
And it's a sorry affair because you don't really care
You don't even try
Those melodies haunt you, they make no sound
Those melodies haunt you when there's no one around
Those melodies haunt you
They make no sound
Those melodies, they haunt you now
Those melodies, they haunt you how
Those melodies, they haunt you now
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Bereta_Eder
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Imran. Sure value
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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Ok, I'll post the first article (by the most reputable source... The Times of London):
quote:
Inside the camp of the dead
from janine di giovanni in jenin refugee camp
BASHIR died in agony. The hands of the 23-year-old Palestinian are clenched into tight fists, his body charred.
He lies buried under rubble and cement, his head twisted towards the door as if crying out for help. His tomb is a wasted house that crashed around him after the Israelis tried to bulldoze it to make a road.
Next door, up a blackened stairway and across shards of glass, is the body of Ashran Abu Hadel, also 23. Someone tried to pull him out of the rubble but gave up. His arm lies straight out, as though he tried to push himself away from the cement as he lay dying.
Elsewhere in the Jenin refugee camp I saw bodies of men who were clearly fighters, replete with ammunition belts and other paramilitary trappings. Bashir and Ashran had nothing.
The refugees I had interviewed in recent days while trying to enter the camp were not lying. If anything, they underestimated the the carnage and the horror. Rarely, in more than a decade of war reporting from Bosnia, Chechnya, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, have I seen such deliberate destruction, such disrespect for human life.
This was not only a town of fighters, as Israeli soldiers told me. It was a town of women, children and old men, who have seen the camp grow into a warren of ramshackle homes over half a century. Amnesty International called for an immediate investigation into “the killings of hundreds of Palestinians”, saying crucial evidence may be destroyed as Israel “continues to impede access”.
Throughout the camp, which the Israelis called a production line for terrorists, there is the stench of death, of bodies that have been rotting in the sun for days. Everyone who survived the fiercest battle of Israel’s Operation Defensive Shield has a terrible story to tell. They take your hand and lead you into their houses across bulldozed mounds of rubble including photo albums, clothing, toys and pillowcases. There, there are more bodies, burnt or twisted grotesquely, caught off guard by sudden death. Nothing prepares you for the smallness of a dead body.
The dead are everywhere. Kamal Anis, a labourer, leads us to an area called Harat al-Hawashim, a mound of rubble the size of four football pitches where 200 houses once stood. He says the Israelis levelled the place; he saw them pile bodies into a mass grave, dump earth on top, then ran over it to flatten it. There are still bulldozers and tanks at work, sending us fleeing into destroyed buildings. There is the sound of children crying. There are people looking for survivors under rubble.
“We have passed dark days,” says Aisha, whose house was turned into a snipers’ nest and base for 50 soldiers. “What we have passed through, I cannot describe to you but I will remember all of my life.”
“What my son told me is that when they get older, they will resist occupation because they have seen this,” says Aisha, a mother of five. For five days since the last Palestinian fighters surrendered the Israelis have prevented us from entering this camp, saying it was booby-trapped. Thirteen Israeli soldiers died in an ambush in its narrow alleys last week.
The Army is still seeking to keep us out. I write this, hiding from an Israeli tank 50 metres away, inside the home of a man called Jamal who, in a state of shock, shows the destruction of his once-grand home. “Israelis broke down this wall so they could shoot from here,” he says. He touches the head of his young son. “I do not want to think how he will survive these memories.”
Yoni Wolff, 26, an Israeli lieutenant who has spent weeks here, told me that no deliberate destruction had taken place and that the soldiers had killed only terrorists. But the hundreds believed dead were not all fighters. Buried under the rubble are the bodies of women and children whose houses caved in around them.
“We destroyed the infrastructure of terror,” Yoni boasted. He said the camp was empty, that civilians had fled and that it was booby-trapped. He said he saw no bodies of civilians, and that it was a successful operation. To reach this “successful operation” we had to run through olive groves, dodging from tree to tree because of an Israeli sniper. I have seen demolished houses before. I have seen wells stuffed with bodies. I have seen civilians terrorised and living under siege. But what remains of Jenin camp is a wasteland of death that once housed 13,000 people.
Sofas and satellite dishes hang from the crevices of third floors of what once were family villas. A red curtain, peppered with bullet holes, flaps in the breeze. This is what war does: it leaves behind imprints of lives. A sewing machine with a girl’s dress still under the needle inside a house with the walls blown out. A goosedown pillow ripped, the feathers fluttering. A photograph of a child with a bird hangs on a partly demolished wall.
“I saw some children who were wounded take four days to die, bleeding to death because there was no one here to tend them,” says Fahdi Jamal, a 30-year-old labourer.
Soraya and Harej, small sisters living in a ruined house with electrical wires hanging from the ceiling and a tank round through the living room wall, do not know their father is dead. Their mother does not know either but their aunt does; she heard it on the radio.
“They stripped him and shot him,” she says. “We can’t tell his wife, she is too sick. She thinks he may still be alive.”
Ramsey, 28, who returned from Germany to be with his family, leads us to where five fighters lie dead inside a house, shot in the head. Flies swarm around and the smell is overpowering. For Muslims, whose custom dictates burial within 24 hours, this is the ultimate degredation.
“There is no justice, no ethics to this war,” says Abu Bashir who is 70 years old. He points at a photo album heaped with the other trash. “This was someone’s life, now it is gone, do you understand?” he shouts. Down the road, near Harat al-Hawashim, Abu Salim, who has passed 50 years in this camp, wanders though the rubble in shock. “What did they do?” he asks. “What did they do?” |
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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A war crime doesn't have to be deliberate or intentially designed to kill civilians. Bringing people's houses down on top of them will almost as surely kill them as being bombed or shot. The Israelis knew this action was likely to result in massive civilian casualties, and decided to do it anyways, instead of perhaps, oh, I don't know . . . how about not invading the camp? 
Home detruction is a particularly Israeli form of war crime. They've been doing it since the very begining, never giving people adequate time to get their stuff out of the houses, often just barely enough to to avoid being crushed. Sometimes they don't even bother, as in Kibbyah, where they say they told the hiding villagers that the homes would be dynamited, bbut then shot at anyone who tried to escape. 
Here's an idea. Arm the Palestinians to parity with the Israelis. Then cut both sides off completely, and let them slaughter each other until they decide that their war is stupid.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by el freako
Eli,
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Jenin one of the area's handed over to the PA during the peace process?
Just as Israel was 'handed' over to the Jews in 1948. |
I don't see the connection really, except in the sense of declared independence.
quote:
So when Israel invaded Jenin surely the people there had just as much right to resist as Jews in 1948 did? |
1) Unlike the Jewish settlements of 1948, Jenin has been the source of many suicide bombings
2) The Israelis haven't announced (and apparently don't have) any intention to kill or expel the inhabitants of the Jenin refugee camp. Compare with Azzam Pasha's statement during the 1948 war.
quote:
If your city was threatened with invasion by a force that had done little but make your life hard for 50 years I can't believe that you would not resist to the best of your ability - maybe to the extent of planting booby-traps for the enemy. |
Okay, but if you do that, don't complain when Israel bulldozes your house to get rid of the booby traps.
quote:
Israel's actions show that it is simply an invading power that only want's control over an area with little regard to the wishes of those living there. |
Um, excuse me? Israel went in for a few weeks to stop terrorists, and know it will be leaving. By this logic, I suppose American action in Afghanistan was that of an invading power wanting control over an area with little regard to the wishes of those living there. Actually, come to think of it, that phrase is a good description of most military campaigns on the enemy's soil.
quote:
Israel has not even had the courage of it's convictions to annex the occupied territories outright - because that would mean either granting the 4m palestinians there voting rights or making their covert apartheid over the palestininan overt. |
No, Israel hasn't done that because it still has some hope of making a deal with the Palestinians.
Last edited by Natan on 17-04-2002 at 05:53
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:18
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I can't believe the level of self-delusion which goes on when the issue is the ME. You guys are war gamers and at least armchair historians. What happens when there is fighting in cities? There is destruction and loss of life. This is a war, and one side is counting on using your reaction and outrage to cover the fact that is has completely abrogated any claim to protection by the rules of warfare by it's purposeful murder of civilians. That side is called the Palestinians. The other side has been forced to go on the offensive in order to at least slow down the regular murder of it's non-combatants. It has massive firepower, and could easily starve or bombard it's enemies out of existence. This side is called Israel.
The funny thing is that Israel has decided to extend not only the normal rules of war to it's enemy (though these are not reciprocated), but it goes out of it's way to prevent civilian casualties by only using a limited selection of direct fire weapons to support the deliberate movements of it's maneuver elements. It does so even though by doing so it raises the risk for its soldiers by an order of magnitude. If you really want to cry about something, have a look at what a real battle in a city looks like. Berlin, Warsaw, Aachen, Stalingrad, can provide a much better frame of reference. If you want to see real genocide, then take a look at what happened in Rwanda, where more civilians were murdered in a week than have been killed in 50+ years of conflict between Jew and Muslim in the ME. You see a scan of the worst damage (with no idea how far it extends) and listen to the hysterical reports of the local civilians and suddenly its as if a million people were slaughtered. You really need numbers to have a perspective.
Maybe if the Palestinians leadership had made peace like real men when they were given the opportunity the Palestinian fighters and terrorists wouldn't have to hide behind their women and children now.
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16-04-2002 21:31
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is good 
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