19-04-2002 21:31									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There is no reason why one-third of all American dailies employ and all-white news team.

You got that part right at least!

	19-04-2002 21:32									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think Im going to take GP's advice.

In other words, you cannot explain yourself.

Come on Cali, fess up. You just want to deny that racism exists. The evidence is there and it is clear and yet still you deny it.

Answer the question.

	19-04-2002 21:32									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why is it so difficult for you to accept that this study shows racism is alive and well in the newspaper industry.

Because from what I've read, you have failed to take into account confounding factors. Correlation does not always equal causation.

	19-04-2002 21:37									#64
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There are no factors other than racism.

Theory: not enought trained minority journalsts.
Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities.

Theory: you can't expect a newspaper in a predominately white community to have racial parity.
Fact: There are newspaper with an all-white news room in communities with a mixed community,

Theory: The readership is all white.
Fact: The parity comparison is based on readership and American newspapers have failed to achieve parity after 25 years.

In other words, all of the excuses have been proven false.

	19-04-2002 21:39									#65
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Cali: either stand by what you said about following GP's advice or answer the question.

	19-04-2002 21:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Theory: not enought trained minority journalsts. Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities.

I fail to see how graduation rates of 25% allow for every newsroom to achieve racial parity in thier hiring of new journalists.

	19-04-2002 21:43									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I fail to see how graduation rates of 25% allow for every newsroom to achieve racial parity in thier hiring of new journalists.

The estimate by the Boston Globe is that given the minority make up of journalism schools, parity should have been reached in five years.

By the way, every year more than 80,000 people graduate from journalsim schools.

	19-04-2002 21:44									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In other words, you cannot explain yourself. Come on Cali, fess up. You just want to deny that racism exists. The evidence is there and it is clear and yet still you deny it. Answer the question.

Ok, I dont have anything better to do right now anyway.

I dont deny racism exists, but your "evidence" consists of numbers and statistics. There is no reason to believe that the high number of white people in the media is due mainly to racism. Its not consistent for you to automatically attribute this to racism, then when I bring up the point about the NBA having high numbers of black players automatically dismiss the idea that this could be due to racism. I personally dont think racism is a factor in the NBA, I am just pointing out your inconsistency.

In what way is it easier to show merit in sports than in the workplace? Also this is irrelevant, because if someone is going to choose on the basis of race it doesnt matter how good you are if you are the wrong race.

	19-04-2002 21:47									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Ok, I dont have anything better to do right now anyway. I dont deny racism exists, but your "evidence" consists of numbers and statistics. There is no reason to believe that the high number of white people in the media is due mainly to racism. Its not consistent for you to automatically attribute this to racism, then when I bring up the point about the NBA having high numbers of black players automatically dismiss the idea that this could be due to racism. I personally dont think racism is a factor in the NBA, I am just pointing out your inconsistency. In what way is it easier to show merit in sports than in the workplace? Also this is irrelevant, because if someone is going to choose on the basis of race it doesnt matter how good you are if you are the wrong race.

Oh come on! It is easy to measure merit in sports. There are stats galore measuring every aspect of the game.

Yes, my evidence consists of specific numbers. In other words, there is objective proof of racism.

You just don't want to admit that racism exists even when there is clear evidence that it does exist.

	19-04-2002 21:49									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh come on! It is easy to measure merit in sports. There are stats galore measuring every aspect of the game. Yes, my evidence consists of specific numbers. In other words, there is objective proof of racism. You just don't want to admit that racism exists even when there is clear evidence that it does exist.

It gets boring for me when you dont listen to what I say. You seem a trifle dim.

	19-04-2002 21:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It gets boring for me when you dont listen to what I say.

What have you said other than "It's not true. it's not true, it's not true."

Why is don't you just admit the fact that there is clear evidence of racism. You can't be that obtuse to admit that you're wrong. Well, actually, you probably can't admit you're wrong.

	19-04-2002 21:57									#72
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By the way, I'll leave you with the last word for the night cause it's 1 a.m. here. But don't worry I'll check the thread later.

	19-04-2002 22:12									#73
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Tingkai, have you ever seen the draft? Have you ever seen those kids after a few years? Over half are usually insurance salesman and realtors, or in trouble with the law. Numbers aren't always the true measure in sports. If you follow football you may know that Saturday is the draft. Over the past few years the Bears have drafted Rashaan Salaam (who might've been good if not for the pot smoking), Curtis Enis (who retired after three years because of knee injuries) and Cade McNown, who for some reason just sucks ass. All of these guys were supposed to perform because they did in college. I repeat, numbers aren't everything.

	20-04-2002 02:13									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What have you said other than "It's not true. it's not true, it's not true." Why is don't you just admit the fact that there is clear evidence of racism. You can't be that obtuse to admit that you're wrong. Well, actually, you probably can't admit you're wrong.

Listen -- no one said, "It's not true, it's not true!" They've simply said that the statistics you've provided is not the end all to be all. You seem to be the only one in this thread unable to accpet that.

Can you accept that maybe minorities aren't as interested in being in journalism as caucasians? Could that possibly be a factor? By the same token, can you accpet that maybe caucasians aren't as interested in being in the NBA?

You are a politically correct wrecking ball run amok.

If a newpaper had more than a racial parity of minorities would you then be arguing that they are discriminating against whites as well? Does every thing have to be in exact harmony, or else its a symptom of racism? Where does your madness end?

	20-04-2002 02:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Listen -- no one said, "It's not true, it's not true!" They've simply said that the statistics you've provided is not the end all to be all. You seem to be the only one in this thread unable to accpet that. Can you accept that maybe minorities aren't as interested in being in journalism as caucasians? Could that possibly be a factor? By the same token, can you accpet that maybe caucasians aren't as interested in being in the NBA? You are a politically correct wrecking ball run amok. If a newpaper had more than a racial parity of minorities would you then be arguing that they are discriminating against whites as well? Does every thing have to be in exact harmony, or else its a symptom of racism? Where does your madness end?

Thanks for saying what I couldnt be bothered to.

	20-04-2002 02:19									#76
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants You are a politically correct wrecking ball run amok.

Hes like a left-wing version of Giancarlo!

	20-04-2002 02:20									#77
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Tingkai -- with regards to MacTBone's post care to comment on Bo Jackson's statistics last year? Care to give us a statistical analysis of Kordell Stewart who nearly lost his job the year before last, only to lead his team to the best NFL win/loss record last year? Care to shed some light on how Hassiem Rachman beat Lennox Lewis, only to lose a year later to Lennox Lewis? Given your gifted use of statistics you should have no problem determining who will win the NHL, NBA, NFL, etc., etc. Nor would I be suprised if you could even go so far as to name the player of the game.

	20-04-2002 07:41									#78
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Can you accept that maybe minorities aren't as interested in being in journalism as caucasians? Could that possibly be a factor?

No, because a quarter of all journalism students are visible minorities. That's about on par, if not higher, then the percentage of visible minorities within the US population. So there is evidence of parity in journalism schools, but not in the industry. In other words, there is evidence that visible minorities are as interested in journalism as whites.

This is about the third time that I have mentioned this evidence, and yet most of you continue to bury your heads in the sand and refuse to listen to the evidence.

quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants If a newpaper had more than a racial parity of minorities would you then be arguing that they are discriminating against whites as well? Does every thing have to be in exact harmony, or else its a symptom of racism?

Again, you're missing the point. Newspaper editors have claimed that they have affirmative action programs, and yet after 25 years, a third of all daily newspapers in the US do not employ minority journalists. That clearly indicates that, for many newspapers, AA is just BS.

	20-04-2002 07:46									#79
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With regards to sports, too many of you seem to be missing the point.

The question about the NBA was: is there racism in the sport? My response is that the performance of NBA players can be measured with stats and so it is easy to explain why they are in the game. If they don't perform, they don't survive and their performance can be measured. This is simply stuff folks.

Is there racism against white NBA players. I strongly doubt it. Can anyone provide an example of a good white basketball player who was not able to get into the NBA?

	20-04-2002 10:22									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Can anyone provide an example of a good white basketball player who was not able to get into the NBA?

Can you provide an example of a good, qualified minority journalist (This doesn't always follow with graduating from a school.) that was passed over for a job because of racism?

	20-04-2002 10:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai With regards to sports, too many of you seem to be missing the point. The question about the NBA was: is there racism in the sport? My response is that the performance of NBA players can be measured with stats and so it is easy to explain why they are in the game. If they don't perform, they don't survive and their performance can be measured. This is simply stuff folks. Is there racism against white NBA players. I strongly doubt it. Can anyone provide an example of a good white basketball player who was not able to get into the NBA?

Tingkai, sure.

The precense of clear standards allows us to see there is no racism. If there are no clear standards, does that mean the suspect industry is racist? No. It MIGHT mean that there is an imbalence in applicants from different groups, just as in the NBA. (Or there might be racism. But you can't tell just from the numbers.) The points are:

1. You can't tell that an industry is racist just because of outcomes.
2. Industries MAY have different balances of racial representation and NOT be racist.

	20-04-2002 10:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Can you provide an example of a good, qualified minority journalist (This doesn't always follow with graduating from a school.) that was passed over for a job because of racism?

Well, we know that there are white basketball players who don't make the transition from college to pros. (Waits to see if Tingkai can make analogy...)

	20-04-2002 10:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GP Tingkai, sure. The precense of clear standards allows us to see there is no racism. If there are no clear standards, does that mean the suspect industry is racist? No. It MIGHT mean that there is an imbalence in applicants from different groups, just as in the NBA. (Or there might be racism. But you can't tell just from the numbers.) The points are: 1. You can't tell that an industry is racist just because of outcomes. 2. Industries MAY have different balances of racial representation and NOT be racist.

Sure, but when other factors are examined and found to have no effect then it is reasonable to conclude that racism is a major factor.

What evidence exists that racism is not a major factor?

You have again stated there might be an imbalance in applicants, but there is evidence showing this is not true as I have stated before.

	20-04-2002 10:46									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What evidence exists that racism is not a major factor?

I wasn't aware that you could prove a negative.

	20-04-2002 10:52									#85
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True.

Let me re-phrase the question. Can you provide any evidence that factors other than racism are contributing to the results? Can you show that the number of minorities seeking newspaper job is lower than for whites? Can you provide any evidence that minorities are less likely to pursue a journalism career?

	20-04-2002 11:11									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Sure, but when other factors are examined and found to have no effect then it is reasonable to conclude that racism is a major factor. What evidence exists that racism is not a major factor? You have again stated there might be an imbalance in applicants, but there is evidence showing this is not true as I have stated before.

1. Well, since you are sure that racism is the cause of the discrepancy, it's up to you to prove it. I'm more agnostic. You're the one who's sure of his opinion without having proof. I'm more open.

2. The proportion of white college basketball players is higher than the proportion of white pro basketball players. That means that either racism is operating against whites or that whites aren't as good of pro prospects or that they're not interested in the NBA.

3. Surely the same thing could be happening in newspapers.

	20-04-2002 11:19									#87
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It aint racism it's networking (or nepotism), and quite frankly whites have more connections then minorities. Remember it not what you know but who you know esp. in journalism.

	20-04-2002 11:29									#88
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Maybe (note the maybe) the papers are making judgements on writing samples. Maybe they consider this the same as looking at game films (for basketball players).

	20-04-2002 11:51									#89
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Moral Hazard: Are you a journalist? On what do you base your statements?

GP:
1. There is an ample supply of minority journalists based on the people who are training to become journalists. These people are different from college athletes who may or may not want a professional athletic career. If you pay money to get a journalism degree then it stands to reason that you want a career in journalism.

2. The supply of minority journalists is there, but at least a third of American dailies do not have a single visible minority on staff. These dailies include papers that operate in communities with a high percentage of visible minorities.

3. To be an average reporter does not require a lot of skill. We're not talking NBA skills here. The vast majority of reporting that I have seen is nothing special and could be done by anyone (the stuff that is really good does require special skill that most reporters don't have). So the skill limitation is not a factor.

If you eliminate all, but one explanation then the remaining explanation is likely true.

	20-04-2002 12:18									#90
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Tingkai,

See my post at 29 after the hour. I really can't say much more here. I've stated my points clearly and in several cases you have strained to even understand what I am driving at. I'll have to let you steep and think about things.