20-04-2002 12:22									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Moral Hazard: Are you a journalist? On what do you base your statements? GP: 1. There is an ample supply of minority journalists based on the people who are training to become journalists. These people are different from college athletes who may or may not want a professional athletic career. If you pay money to get a journalism degree then it stands to reason that you want a career in journalism. 2. The supply of minority journalists is there, but at least a third of American dailies do not have a single visible minority on staff. These dailies include papers that operate in communities with a high percentage of visible minorities. 3. To be an average reporter does not require a lot of skill. We're not talking NBA skills here. The vast majority of reporting that I have seen is nothing special and could be done by anyone (the stuff that is really good does require special skill that most reporters don't have). So the skill limitation is not a factor. If you eliminate all, but one explanation then the remaining explanation is likely true.

Showing that there are a certain number of minorities with journalism degrees does not mean that the minority applicants are equal. They may still differ in ability. I made this point earlier. Papers will pick the best applicant they can find. Not just one who has been to school.

	20-04-2002 12:26									#92
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quote: Originally posted by GP Tingkai, See my post at 29 after the hour. I really can't say much more here. I've stated my points clearly and in several cases you have strained to even understand what I am driving at. I'll have to let you steep and think about things.

Funny, I was about to write the same thing about you.

We're going around in circles here.

I'll close off my comments to this thread by saying that anyone in the business would get a good laugh about your comment that "Papers will pick the best applicant they can find." If only that were true.

	20-04-2002 12:32									#93
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Businesses have an economic incentive to hire workers who will make money for them. They don't always manage it. Just like you don't always pick the best car...but you have incentives to do so...

NBA teams don't always pick the best player in the draft but they try to...

	20-04-2002 20:10									#94
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--"As well, it puts to rest the idea that the playing field is level in the United States, that whites are being deprived of jobs, or that the US no longer needs AA."

This story does no such thing. The article you link to admits that there is already a shortage of minority candidates for print journalist positions. No matter how much AA you're willing to spout, if there's no candidates for the jobs, there's no candidates for the jobs. This is hardly racism.

--"Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities."

And your own damn article says they're mostly chosing broadcasting careers rather than print. Again, not racism.

quote: But not enough minorities are choosing print journalism, and instead are choosing broadcasting or public relations.

Why people are so irritated with you is that you are simply refusing to admit there might just possibly be perhaps some other factor than racism involved here.

Wraith
Math illiteracy affects 8 out of every 5 people.

	20-04-2002 20:40									#95
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Surely you should pick the best person for the job?

If the best people are white, and the reason being that other groups are not given a good start in life, e.g they lack the needed skills because of a poor education, why take it out on employers, do something to correct the education system.

If you employ a quota of a minority group, will it be self-sustaining (that is if you later remove the quota-ring system will the proportion remain ~constant). I don't think so, because the cause of the need for quota-ring is not being addressed. Unless you subscribe to the theory that like chooses like for a job.

	20-04-2002 21:04									#96
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The main place where AA is a big factor is education, where minorites have a decided advantage in college admissions.

	21-04-2002 00:07									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"As well, it puts to rest the idea that the playing field is level in the United States, that whites are being deprived of jobs, or that the US no longer needs AA." This story does no such thing. The article you link to admits that there is already a shortage of minority candidates for print journalist positions. No matter how much AA you're willing to spout, if there's no candidates for the jobs, there's no candidates for the jobs. This is hardly racism. --"Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities." And your own damn article says they're mostly chosing broadcasting careers rather than print. Again, not racism. Why people are so irritated with you is that you are simply refusing to admit there might just possibly be perhaps some other factor than racism involved here. Wraith Math illiteracy affects 8 out of every 5 people.

Yup, do the math. About 88,000 people graduate from journalism school each year. Of these, about 25 per cent are visible minorities. So about 22.000 visible minorities graduate from journalism schools. Let's assume that 75 per cent want to go into broadcast, that leaves 5,500 visible minorities who want to pursue a career in print journalism. Let's say that only the top 10 per cent have the skills to make it in the big times. That means that 550 of them are more than qualifed. There are about 1,500 daily newspapers in the US. So within a 10 year period there are 5,500 elite visible minority journalists and about 50,000 average visible minority journalists.

So why is it that one-third (about 500) of all American daily newspapers do not employ a single visible minority editorial worker?

Do the math.

	21-04-2002 00:14									#98
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I think you're on the right side, but consider that most American dailies are from cities that aren't that big, that have very small minority communities, and may not be very attractive to minority candidates. Most of the major cities only have one or two dailies.

The fact that there is lots of smoke, doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire. It does, however, warrent a close look.

	21-04-2002 00:32									#99
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--"Let's assume that 75 per cent want to go into broadcast"

You forgot the PR part as well. Big companies (and governments) use a lot of PR people.
It would also be interesting to see the relative pay scales of the three fields.

--"Let's say that only the top 10 per cent have the skills to make it in the big times."

If they've got the skills to make it in the big time, they sure aren't going to be applying to the majority of those daily newspapers, they're going to be gunning for places like the New York Times. Think about where most of those papers are. A lot of rural areas are predominately white, if not almost entirely white. So how many of those all-white daily papers are actually at racial parity with their readership? Your article doesn't even consider the question, and without that answer any attempt to delcare racism is invalid.

Wraith
"The difference between literature and journalism is that journalism is unreadable and literature is not read."
-- Oscar Wilde

	21-04-2002 00:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think you're on the right side, but consider that most American dailies are from cities that aren't that big, that have very small minority communities, and may not be very attractive to minority candidates. Most of the major cities only have one or two dailies. The fact that there is lots of smoke, doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire. It does, however, warrent a close look.

Good words from the commie! Could you take this left-wing Giancarlo under your wing and tutor him?

	21-04-2002 00:48									#101
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Is Tingkai learning from any of this?

	21-04-2002 01:13									#102
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quote: Originally posted by GP Good words from the commie! Could you take this left-wing Giancarlo under your wing and tutor him?

Come now, he is no where near as bad as Gian. Nine times out of ten, I think he's got an excellent and well-argued point. This is just one of those one times out of ten. Furthermore, despite that fact that he's reading more into this tha may be there, what he has shown should give us cause for concern.

In epidimiologial terms, there's definately a sickness. What needs to be done is investigation into the cause.

	21-04-2002 01:29									#103
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Well...I just think he's not that smart. You're better. In terms of issues, I probably align closer to him than you...

And Gian has gotten better...

	21-04-2002 17:45									#104
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Well golly. Gomer Pyle has a low opinion of my intelligence. You can imagine the amount of disquiet that cause me given the amount of respect that I have for Gomer (i.e. none).

And he seems to have developed a fondness for his latest label relating to Giancarlo. Let's see, IIRC Giancarlo is a Spanish homosexual who hates homosexuals while I'm a Canadian hetrosexual who does not hate homosexuals. Giancarlo gained infamy for sending photos of himself to other posters, something I have never done. Yup, I can see the similarities.

Che mentions a new justification for all-white news teams and Wraith grasps at it -- newspapers with all-white news teams serve all-white communities. The problem is: the facts shoots holes into this latest theory just like the other excuses.

The Athens Banner-Herald, GA, circulation 33,000 (that's down your way Gomer) has an all-white news team even though more than a quarter of the population are visible minorities.

Then there is the Chico Enterprise-Record, CA with an all-white news team serving a community with 22.5 per cent being visible minorities.

The Daily Progress, Charlottesville, VA (20.2%), The Times-News, Burlington, NC (27.6%), The Tribune, Fort Pierce, FL (25.1%), The News-Argus, Goldsboro, NC (39.7 %). All of these papers have circulations of more than 20,000. All have white only news teams. All serve communities with large sectios of visible minorities.

Che's theory can explain some situations. The Bangor, Maine newspaper serves a community with 3.4 per cent visible minorities. In cases like this he is probably right.

But how about those communities where the visible minorities are actually a majority of the population and yet the newspapers in these places employ no visible minorities.

The Press Register, Clarksdale, MS (72% of the community is not white), The Signal, Santa Clarita, CA (68.9%), or the The Vicksburg Post, MS (60%).

Why is it that these newspapers have an all-white newsteam even though the papers serve communities where non-whites are the majority?


Every time someone tries to deny racism by throwing up a wild theory, the facts shoot down the theory.

Eliminate these excuses and you're left with the one explanation: Racism is alive and well within the newspaper industry. Are all newspapers racist. No. But the evidence indicates racism is affecting hiring decisions at a large number of newspapers.

	21-04-2002 18:08									#105
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Some wild theory my fat arse.

I've lived in several midwest towns that both were predominately white and had daily newspapers. Your handful of counter-examples is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making. What percentage of those all-white papers reflect their readership? 5%? 95%? Somewhere inbetween? The answer to this has a great deal to do with the credibility of your blanket statement of industry-wide racism.
Secondly, your counter-examples still do nothing to prove racism. You are still refusing to accept the simple fact that there might be some other factor involved. Until you eliminate those other factors (the prime would be other similar jobs in the same area) your statement is nothing but rhetoric.
Are some of these places racist? Probably some of them. Ignorance and stupidty are not uncommon. Yet this is still a far cry from your blanket condemnation of the entire industry.

I wish more people remembered the story of the boy who cried wolf...

Wraith
"The are times when one would like to hang the whole human race and finish the farce."
-- Twain

	21-04-2002 20:52									#106
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Come on Wraith. Guys like you and Gomer just want to deny that racism exists. You can't accept the facts.

We have eliminated the other factors, you just refuse to acknoledge it. You simply stick your head in the ground and deny that racism exists.

In answer to your question there are no daily newspapers operating in all-white communities, at least by your strict definition simply because all of the communities have visible minorities.

Of 1,448 daily newspapers were surveyed.
530 have all-white newsrooms and of these only 162 (about 30 per cent) are in communities where visible minorities make up less than five per cent of the community. For these communities, Che's theory is applicable.

But in 204 newspapers (about 40 per cent) are operating in communities where more than 10 per cent of the population are visible minorities. 88 newspapers with white-only editorial staff are in communities where visible minorities make up more than 25 per cent of the population.

The remainder are in communities where visible minorities make up 6-9 per cent of the population. I have left these out of the equation because it is rather debatable about whether such communities are "all-white" and debatable about whether a newspaper should be expected to achieve parity at this level.

Now I know what you're going to say. "There's still no evidence because (insert new excuse here).

Why can't you just accept that racism is influencing hiring decision among American newspapers.

Or will you stick your head back into the ground?

Last edited by Tingkai on 21-04-2002 at 20:57

	21-04-2002 21:09									#107
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Actually, Tingkai, what I was trying to get at was that the vast majority of the United States is lily-white, in terms of land area and number of communities. Minorities (visible and otherwise) are not widely distrubted, being confined to large cities, the South, Indian reservations, and the border area with Mexico. Minorities aren't necessarily going to feel comfortable moving to Cody, Wyoming to take a job at newspaper there.

There's very few people with whom they can relate. It took me years to get my SO comfortable with the idea of leaving Chicago (63% minority) for a city and state with a much smaller percentage of Black people (Portland, OR and Seattle, WA,--to neither of which we moved--and she wasn't too keen on Jacksonville, FL which is only 25% minority).

Now, this is definately because she is afraid of racism (and with good reason), but it isn't necessarily racism on the part of perspective employers. When we walked into a resteraunt in Makokata, Iowa a few years back, every conversation stopped and everyone turned and looked at us. Our *sses were out the door in seconds. The less said about our adventures in Idaho, the better.

	21-04-2002 21:11									#108
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--"Come on Wraith. Guys like you and Gomer just want to deny that racism exists."

Where did I deny it exists? I said specifically that some of those cases probably are racism. What I have a problem with is your blanket condemnation of the entire industry based on a few samples. It's just as bad as someone condemning all blacks for the anti-semitism of Farahkan. You simply cannot blame the whole for the actions of the few, and you obviously missed the point of my mentioning the boy who cried wolf. When you make such overblown claims you make it far less likely that anyone's going to listen to you whether you've got a point or not.

--"But in 204 newspapers (about 40 per cent)"

So, by your numbers, we're talking less than half of these that might warrant further investigation. You still haven't addressed any other issues (how many journalism schools in the area, their population, PR and broadcasting jobs in the area, etc).

--"Or will you stick your head back into the ground?"

No, but I'll suggest that you've got your head stuck so far up your ass you may as well finish crawling in and disappear.

Look, I'm running short on patience right now. I do notice that your profile lists your occupation as editor. For some reason I think you've got a bug up your butt on this for personal reasons. Don't spew hate at a whole group just because someone's pissed you off in the past.

Hmm... blaming a whole category for the actions of a few of its members? Why does that sound so familiar? {/Sarcasm}

Wraith
Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

	22-04-2002 03:05									#109
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, Tingkai, what I was trying to get at was that the vast majority of the United States is lily-white, in terms of land area and number of communities. Minorities (visible and otherwise) are not widely distrubted, being confined to large cities, the South, Indian reservations, and the border area with Mexico. Minorities aren't necessarily going to feel comfortable moving to Cody, Wyoming to take a job at newspaper there.

Che if you make your point several times and explain it step by step, Tingkai will understand. He's a little slow on analogies or more complex thoughts, so spell it out. He can get it then.

	22-04-2002 03:10									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And he seems to have developed a fondness for his latest label relating to Giancarlo. Let's see, IIRC Giancarlo is a Spanish homosexual who hates homosexuals while I'm a Canadian hetrosexual who does not hate homosexuals. Giancarlo gained infamy for sending photos of himself to other posters, something I have never done. Yup, I can see the similarities.

Oh don't get your panties all bunched up. I'm not questioning your sexuality. (Do try to follow threads of argument, dear Tingkai...). Maybe Wiglaf or Faded Glory would be better comparisons...

	22-04-2002 06:28									#111
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Giancarlo is/was also well known for being a right-wing idealogue.

Thats why Tingkai is truly a left-wing version of Giancarlo.


WhiteElephants said it best:


You are a politically correct wrecking ball run amok.

	22-04-2002 07:02									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith Where did I deny it exists? I said specifically that some of those cases probably are racism. What I have a problem with is your blanket condemnation of the entire industry based on a few samples.

Did you read my last message?

This is what I said at the end of my last message: "Are all newspapers racist. No. But the evidence indicates racism is affecting hiring decisions at a large number of newspapers."

That's hardly a blanket condemnation.

quote: Originally posted by Wraith So, by your numbers, we're talking less than half of these that might warrant further investigation.

No, about half of the newspapers with an all-white news team have a lame excuse for not hiring visible minorities. That doesn't mean that racism is not affecting their hiring decisions. It does not mean that these newspapers do not warrant further investiation.

quote: Originally posted by Wraith Actually, Tingkai, what I was trying to get at was that the vast majority of the United States is lily-white, in terms of land area and number of communities. ... Minorities aren't necessarily going to feel comfortable moving to Cody, Wyoming to take a job at newspaper there.

The lily white excuse doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Just because a newspaper is in a lily white town does not mean that it is impossible for the newspaper to hire a visible minority. In fact, quite the opposite.

In the Globe survey, of the top 20 newspapers, ranked by parity score, 14 are in communities where visible minorities make up less than 5 per cent of the population. And among the top 35, only two newspapers are in towns with more than 10 per cent visible minority.

In other words, these newspapers have been able to hire visible minorities in predominately lily white towns.

Consider Wyoming (no listing for Cody), but 10 per cent of news team at The News-Record in Gillette, WY. are visible minorities in a town where 6 per cent of the town are visible minorities. Two other Wyoming papers are at parity.

Yet the Riverton Rocket has an all-white news staff even through 25 per cent of the community are visible minorities.

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel in Wisconson has achieved parity as has the Des Moines Register.

There is simply no correlation between operating in a lily white community and not being able to hire visible minorities.

Newspapers with an all-white staff, or predominately all-white staff are spread out across the country.

There is also indications that three newspapers have racist hiring decisions against whites. The Silver City Daily Press & Independent, NM does not have any whites on staff even through half of the community is white. Neither does The Journal, Martinsburg, WV or the Las Vegas Optic, NM.

The Journal is quite odd because none of its staff are white, yet it serves a community where only 9.5 per cent are visible minorities and it has a circulation of about 19,000. That indicates racism is a factor in the Journal's hiring decisions.

	22-04-2002 07:15									#113
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so the higher the ammount of minorities

the less they are employed by the media

hmm

there has to be some reason for this

Jon Miller

	22-04-2002 07:15									#114
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Can we please get stats for how many minorities are in the Top 10% of their respective journalism majors in university? Perhaps that can be an adequate explination. If they don't perform as highly as whites, then you have an answer.

	22-04-2002 07:51									#115
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Why? Are you suggesting that the graduates who finished in the top 40 to 11 per cent of their class are not qualified to work at a small or medium-sized daily newspaper?

According to the ASNE, in 1999, 6,225 visible minorities graduated from Master degree journalism programs in the US. Assuming 25 per cent go into print journalism (and there are indications that this is the trend) that's about 1,500 potential candidates. Add in the BA graduates (5,525 x 25% = about 1400). So that's a pool of about 2,900 visible minority candidates every year for about 1,500 daily newspapers in the US.

	22-04-2002 07:54									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Assuming 25 per cent go into print journalism (and there are indications that this is the trend)

What reason is there to "assume" that is the trend here? If you are going to lay an accussation of this level against an entire industry, it would help you to not base it on assumptions.

	22-04-2002 07:57									#117
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That's based on studies by the American Society of Newspaper Editors that has found that about 25 per cent of minority journalist end up pursuing a career in print journalism. For whatever reason, the majority of minority journalists prefer a broadcast career.

	22-04-2002 07:59									#118
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quote: Why? Are you suggesting that the graduates who finished in the top 40 to 11 per cent of their class are not qualified to work at a small or medium-sized daily newspaper?

I'd think they'd prefer to have those 10% and above, wouldn't you?

	22-04-2002 08:19									#119
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Imran: I don't think the small dailies are able to compete for the top 10 per cent. Medium-sized dailies would still be considered a stepping stone for the top 10 per cent.

A 1997 study found that: "26.6 percent of the minorities had an A average, compared to 33.7 percent of the whites."

However, in terms of the people hired by daily newspapers:

16.6 percent of the minorities had an A average, compared to 35.6% of the whites.

That study concludes that minorities graduates who majored in print journalism are less prepared to compete in the job market, although it would be wrong to conclude that they are completely unprepared.

57.1 percent of the minorities had taken [print] internships, compared to 62.9 percent of the whites.

63.3 percent of the minorities had worked for a college newspaper, compared to 74.8 percent of the whites.

I don't think those number are significantly different. The same goes for this statement:

A greater portion of the white print journalism majors (58.5 percent) sought jobs with daily newspapers than did minorities (53.7 percent). Daily newspapers, however, offered jobs to the same portion of minority print journalism majors (43.9 percent) as they did to whites (43.5 percent).

http://www.asne.org/kiosk/diversity/numbers.htm

The following will give many of you a field day, even though the conclusions are problematic.

The study cited above concludes:

Journalism/mass communications schools are graduating about 750 minority print journalism grads a year.

Compared to non-minorities, in general minorities seeking jobs at daily newspapers are less likely to have majored in journalism, taken internships or worked on college papers, and their grade point average is lower than whites’ who apply.

Newspapers hire similar proportions of the minority and non-minority print journalism majors, even though a slightly lower proportion of minority print journalism majors apply to newspapers for jobs.