31-05-2002 09:13									#31
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I only know that the strat guide that he co-authored for MOO ws the best I have ever read. So much nuts and bolts, so you could really understand the value of a given item. Comapre it to say the guide for Ascendany, where it does not even tell you exactly what the function of a weapon.

	31-05-2002 12:55									#32
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But then writing great strat guides and designing great strat games are two different skill sets, although admitteldy closely related. Perhaps his experience with one led him on to the way to overcomplexity in the other.

That's what QS would have us believe now, anyway.

	31-05-2002 20:43									#33
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I did not follow Moo3 real close, so I can't say how the game was going, but it did seem to be getting very complex. I was not excited about the points to let me control things. I want to control everything, or at least be able to in a pinch. I would delegate to a miniter, if it could handle the job.

	01-06-2002 11:07									#34
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IFP (and the whole MOO saga) is another example of how people screw up sequels by trying to be too different. Experienced designers agree with me on this.

IFP was a neat idea. But should have been left out of MOO. MOO just needed smarter AI. bugs fixed, better graphics, and a couple new knick-nacks. No new concepts. MOO2 was a hit. MOO3 just needed to hit the same sweet spot.

	01-06-2002 11:08									#35
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Let some other game introduce the IFP concept...

	01-06-2002 14:38									#36
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Hmm... would you be thinking of a game that re-brands the concept as GPs, GP?

	01-06-2002 14:41									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GP IFP was a neat idea. But should have been left out of MOO. MOO just needed smarter AI. bugs fixed, better graphics, and a couple new knick-nacks. No new concepts. MOO2 was a hit. MOO3 just needed to hit the same sweet spot.

I see your point, but I'm not so sure I agree. 4x TBS has been crying out for a feature like IFP for a long time now - if IFP had been the only difference between Moo2 and Moo3 it would still have been a killer game.

But it wouldn't have sold very much, no.

	01-06-2002 22:50									#38
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I am with GP. All I wanted was Moo/Moo2 updated. Improved graphic, clean up know issues and some new stuff. If they could add in a means of handle the micromangement the way I wanted, that would be great, especially if it was optional. Let me set up a standard script for building, that I can change anytime, ala Stars. Most games that offer a minister, do not cut it. Anyone using the Gov in Civ3? I was concerned aout the IFP as it was not going to let me do as much as I wanted. That is what TBS is all about.
If they want a real break through, make an AI that plays smarter as you go up levels, instead of laying handicaps on the player. Most just make the AI start out with more stuff and you with less and or handicap the researching. That would take more thinking and coding and require better machines to play.

	02-06-2002 08:54									#39
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From what I understand, to actually insert IFP is a not trivial programming challenge. I think IFP would have been a great feature. I'll even say that it would not have pulled the game too far away from its brand...so its fine in that respect. What I'm trying to say is that its a classic example of new designers doing a sequel and changing it too much and those changes causing problems with the schedule.

If you check out those articles, one of the designers mentions this issue as a common problem.

	02-06-2002 08:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Hmm... would you be thinking of a game that re-brands the concept as GPs, GP?

Yes...let other upstart game companies develop the concept. And name it properly.

CBR uber alles!!

	02-06-2002 18:04									#41
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Yes. But IFPs were certainly not the only new thing Emrich tried to squeeze in, and I personally regret it was one of the things that were axed - while RT combat is still in, for instance.

We all know that IFPs would've been difficult to implement - but it's not like QS didn't have the time and money. As far as an outsider can tell, their time and money were squanderd - witness the spectacluar kick Emrich got.

Still, I agree that a souped-up Moo2 with some of the glaring bugs fixed and a couple of nifty features like default build queues would certainly have been an appealing games as well.

	03-06-2002 03:12									#42
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We are probably in agreement. I like IFP also. And I think we both agree that IFP was a symptom of a bigger problem...not a killer issue if it were the only big advance.

Boy I hope the CBR crew is taking a lesson from all this...

	03-06-2002 16:40									#43
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Yes. Seems QS holds up as a case study of things gone wrong in a development process, unfortunately.

Not that CB has so much to learn from QS yet - there're not in a position to be able to duplicate QS errors yet... and I rather suspect they got that don't overcomplicate lesson already.

	04-06-2002 02:30									#44
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The urge to overcomplicate is probably strong. May need a lot of rubbing in of the lesson to make it effective.

	04-06-2002 02:38									#45
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The interesting parallel is that Alan was a strat-guide-writing gaming afficianado without software programming skills. And Vel is...?

	04-06-2002 03:21									#46
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That's scary stuff, GP. Very scary indeed

But it's be scarier still over at the CB forum, eh?

	04-06-2002 03:38									#47
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you were supposed to finish the sentence and give me some satisfaction. What good is a straight man if he doesn't follow along...

	04-06-2002 03:47									#48
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Us furriners not play games like dat, GP

	04-06-2002 03:47									#49
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is someone else now supposed to finish that sentence?

but i do wonder who could kick Vel out the CB project??

	04-06-2002 03:51									#50
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Infogrames, after they get the contract to publish the darn thing?

	04-06-2002 04:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Us furriners not play games like dat, GP

Go to bed than. GF wants you off the computer...

	04-06-2002 04:21									#52
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Haven't you noticed my PC spiking this last week? GFs in Paris, and I get to play all I want!

	04-06-2002 04:30									#53
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party time!!

	04-06-2002 04:32									#54
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yup! Ends soon, but what the heck - I got my avatar.

	04-06-2002 06:48									#55
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Ok, I will bite. I know the Vel is involved with some new project called Candle.... I don't know what it is to be. I know that is why he stopped posting in the Civ3 strat forum. which was fine as I do not follow it any longer anyway. I took a quick look at the forum, but gave up. Is it some sort of Civ like game? I know Vel was a big AC fan, so was I at one time. I got tired of unhappy citizens, same as all of Sid's games. I did like the staple there butt idea.

	04-06-2002 08:26									#56
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Just post in there. Vel will give you the skinny or someobdey else will.

	04-06-2002 14:58									#57
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It's more like EU, vmxa. Looks promising.

	04-06-2002 21:05									#58
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GP, what is the deal with a 1969 registration?

	04-06-2002 21:11									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

Arpanet precurser BBS (strategy discussion group). It morphed into this board over a period of years. We were grandfathered in.

	04-06-2002 22:03									#60
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I do not recall any modems in 1969? I had just gotten out of the Navy in 1968 where I was a computer tech and worked in a data center for a retail store on a 360-30. It was a long time later when I finally got to a 300 baud acoustic coupled modem.