20-04-2002 16:05									#31
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Has anyone been able to extort a city on peace renegotiation on 1.21f? I failed so far even with the weakest civs and extorting grassland cities (no resources). Methinks Soren has tweaked his AI in that matter. Oh well, it was imbalancing anyway...

	20-04-2002 18:06									#32
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Sir Ralph,

The year is 290 AD (emperor/continents/maps/Japan) and I've just finished my first war (12 swordsmen + 7 warriors reservists as upgrade option) with the Chinese to get more 'Lebensraum' and to secure the horses that were just outside my borders.

After having razed three cities, having conquered Shanghai (Great Leader) that holds the Hanging Gardens and two incenses and after having threatened beijing, I was aiming for peace (free techs ) .

The Ai on 1.21f seems more willingly to trade with me and they offer better deals, imagine that (of course my first game and start conditions were rather good).

The Chinese gave me everything: techs and LOTS OF MONEY PER TURN (which I never got on 1.17f from a heavily beaten up civ) and ONE CITY (first time since before 1.17f!!! )

Final point: what about tech trading? At 290 AD all civs except me (1 tech behind thanks to Chinese) have theology. (I'll buy it and rush the Sistine Chapel with GL ) So is tech trading reduced?
A little bit I guess, alhough I must really hurry now if I want my next war fighting with samurais.

The game 'feels'/seems to be more fun now and significantly easier , but this might be as I've just won my first deity game last week!

AJ

edit: it wasn't a peace renogiation though Sir Ralph, but I suppose same goes up?

	20-04-2002 18:54									#33
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The peace renegotiations have always been somewhat different than end of war negotiations. I haven't been able to install the patch yet (need to finish up a 1.17f game first). I think it's a good thing if the AI won't part with cities in 1.21f for peace renegotiations though! Definitely was an exploit because there were no consequences for doing it, plus it gave away future resource locations.

	20-04-2002 19:01									#34
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Another thing, although it might be simply bad luck. I've played 3 test games so far (ancient era only), all with the expansionist Iroquois on huge continent maps. I've had only in one game one "skilled settler", although I opened lots of huts. Most huts gave me maps or money.

	20-04-2002 19:03									#35
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Aeson,

Thanks to the advise of you, Zachriel and others I now know how to conduct renegotiations (active and new buttons, crazy I've hardly noticed them before). I'm going to use it for the first time in my current game versus the Chinese . What is the timing for renegotiation?

1 turn before deal expires?

AJ

PS how do you usually follow up on this (write it down/regularly checking of active deals?)

PPS With this new way of extorting techs from AI's I'll become even stronger than before , especially since I've just learned that selling ROP's can also be very profitable if your empire's rather large
Dr Fell, be prepared for me !

	20-04-2002 19:12									#36
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I use a printed out form with columns of 20 turns each. See attachment, it's quite comfortable if you choose a small font and print it on A4/Letter.

The proper time is after the treaty ended, or even later. The AI seems to part with techs and money if you are strong, but not cities. Overall it feels, that the game is darn good balanced now. Great job, this patch !

Attachment: years.zip
This has been downloaded 46 time(s).

	20-04-2002 19:24									#37
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Sir Ralph,

I've just tried it. Apparently you can't renegotiate a peace deal after it expires (AI civ will pop up asking for peace, only alternative is warring again).

I reloaded 1 turn before expiration, contacted Chinese, Active deals and ... hurrah, my first renegotiation is a fact!
Peace for another 20 turns. It's a pity though they only give me 1 gold/per turn, although I've beaten them up heavily and they have two techs that I haven't, but thet refuse to give me

Better start building up an army again fast ...
(focussed on marketplaces/cathedrals/colosseums)

AJ

	20-04-2002 19:43									#38
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Sorry I misunderstood you. With renegotiating after a war you're right. You need to renegotiate it before it expires. What I meant was peace renegotiations without a war before. They last 20 turns like a trade and you need to wait till they expire.

	21-04-2002 01:06									#39
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5 ancient ages (huge continents), 2 skilled settlers. The # of settlers out of huts has been certainly reduced. But Expansionist is still powerful, because techs out of huts are much more valuable now that tech trading has been fixed. And there are still plenty techs in the huts.

I found the most astounding undocumented change. I never saw my science advisor happy with his funds, now he is :

Attachment: science.jpg
This has been downloaded 619 time(s).

	21-04-2002 01:38									#40
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Unbelievable...

Not to start a flame-war, but that is the MOST unrealistic thing I have seen in Civ3!!

	21-04-2002 15:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I found the most astounding undocumented change. I never saw my science advisor happy with his funds, now he is :

This was actually a bug, and Gramphos pointed it out to Firaxis.

	21-04-2002 16:34									#42
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Good, about time he stopped asking for more than 100% funding!

	22-04-2002 02:33									#43
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I just think it's funny that he looks all stoned in that picture

	22-04-2002 05:24									#44
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The 0 turn war:

I still haven't been able to install the patch, but one interesting thing about peace renegotiations that SirPleb figured out. Seems that the AI will still part with cities if you first cancel the peace treaty, then renegotiate (stay in negotiations after cancelling). You take a bigger hit in reputation though. So at least it's a little more balanced. Of course if you don't care about reputation, nothing has really changed.

	22-04-2002 05:51									#45
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It feels like the AI is a little tougher about it though...

	22-04-2002 23:05									#46
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As someone who plays on a Mac, and is therefore still waiting for the 1.21 patch, I ask: are there any changes caused by the new patch that seem to affect strategy?

	23-04-2002 18:50									#47
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The AI definitely seems tougher when you try to renegotiate peace. I was starting up a warmonger game as Japan and had built up a large military... but when I tried to renegotiate with the weakest civ on the continent (India), they refused even a straight peace treaty - they expected concessions! That sucked, actually, since I hadn't managed my chariot -> horseman upgrade yet and had to rely on a couple of swordsmen to hold them off.

I don't see much difference in AI tech trading, but I haven't left the ancient era yet, so too early to judge that properly.

I don't think the 1.21 changes will result in major strategy shifts. Most of the changes qualify as "tweaks" in my book. I won't use the leathal bombardment (w/o corresponding AA values for ships and ground units, it seems silly), and that's the only thing I see that could potentially change strategy in any significant way. I think we will see some refinements, though.

Depending on how much they beefed up courthouses, building the Forbidden Palace in a decent spot (not perfect, as in 100% corrupt, but still fairly far from the capitol) may be easier. Hell, if you can squeeze three shields - instead of two - out of a marginal city, that's 33 turns saved.

-Arrian

	23-04-2002 21:00									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ... I won't use the lethal bombardment (w/o corresponding AA values for ships and ground units, it seems silly), and that's the only thing I see that could potentially change strategy in any significant way. ...

I have given Sea Lethality bombardment to Battleships (only).

At least against lesser naval units, it seems appropriate that they could use their superior gun range to stand off. How it works in BB vs. BB confrontations remains to be seen.

I'll probably find out in 3-4 weeks, when I get there.

JB

	23-04-2002 22:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce As someone who plays on a Mac, and is therefore still waiting for the 1.21 patch, I ask: are there any changes caused by the new patch that seem to affect strategy?

Well, they fixed the bug where tanks couldn't double attack unless they attacked a single unit (or a single combat units + noncoms) on a 1-movement or less tile. Now your tanks can actually attack a defended city twice in one turn!

I'd say this makes a difference to how many attacks / defenders are going to be required in warfare. Which means the attacker is going to have an easier time of it once tanks are available. Which has implications for when you go to war.

	23-04-2002 23:29									#50
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Oh, now that is nice... I didn't intially understand what they meant (the readme was a bit... cryptic). So Tanks can now hit twice, even if attacking a stack? Sweet. Grant you, if you're fighting vs. Infantry or Mech Inf., you're not going to have too many cases where a double attack is the smart move. But there will be some. *cheers*

-Arrian

	23-04-2002 23:31									#51
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Arrian, the possible FP construction-rate change would certainly affect choices like where to use your GL... or whether to go for one in the first place.

I'm very curious to learn whether the tech research rate has been slowed at all. It's been a while since I've used knights!

Didymus, if I'm still fighting, I already go to war as soon as I have tanks, since they're so much stronger than cavalry. But the implications are as huge as you say regarding anti-tank defense. For someone who doesn't like to build defensive units, I pretty much have to either control my entire continent, so that I can wipe out invading tanks as soon as they land, or else improve my border defenses. The latter will be a welcome complication.

	24-04-2002 00:07									#52
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I've heard that tech advance rates are now even faster (probably left unchanged, but because there is less overall corruption, things progress faster). Then again, in my only post-patch game (Japan/Monarch), it's like 490AD and I'm still in the ancient age. The AI's are just now hitting the Middle Ages. I'm about 6 techs back, I think, but that's kinda by design. One thing I will say... I managed to build the Pyramids and Colossus while fighting a three front ancient war. Of course, casualties have taken their toll (Pyramids are what, 400 shields, Colossus 200 or 300? That's a lot of horsemen I didn't build). My army is a tad thin - so thin I may have to leave my enemies alive (marginal, but alive) for a bit.

The patch change list didn't mention changing the cost of advances, so I would imagine the rate is roughly the same (slightly less tech trading, slightly less corruption).

-Arrian

	24-04-2002 00:26									#53
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The tech trading does sound slow in your game. Building two wonders - including a highly-contested one - while fighting a three-front war must take some deft managing. I wonder whether the AI will drive a harder bargain after you crush them and attempt to catch up on the tech front via negotiation?

	24-04-2002 01:11									#54
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Txurce,

I dunno about deft managing... I think there was some luck involved. Sometimes the AI just gets a late start on wonders. If there is land to colonize, the AI generally will try to fill it before it starts building wonders. I, meanwhile, built about 6 cities and started pumping out chariots. I actually screwed up and built them too soon, because when I finally did get horseback riding,I didn't have the gold necessary to upgrade them all. I had to do it piecemeal. That was partly because I upgraded 5 vet warriors to swordsmen - 200gold - which I normally only do if I have extra cash lying around (horsemen usually a priority). But in this case, with the India renegotiation fiasco, I needed those swords.

I'm in pretty good shape (Pyramids, Colossus, Heroic Epic, Forbidden Palace in a decent spot). I'm big, if not particularly strong right now - I'm down to something like 6 horsemen and a couple of free swordsmen - and I have 4 of my own luxuries, which is beautiful. My only concern is my total lack of infrastructure (not a single marketplace... hell, I don't even have currency). All I have are temples and barracks. I've got a LOT of building to do.

I did notice that one of the civs I'm actively beating on (India, I think) will only give me four out of the six techs they have for peace. They're down to two or three cities. They're at the point that, under 1.17, they would have offered up all their tech, gold, maps, and cities w/o resources. I may actually have to grab some from them, and some from China to catch up in tech. I want one more leader before the war ends, though... I'm greedy, what can I say?

-Arrian

	24-04-2002 01:28									#55
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Tech advance has been slightly braked down, but not much. In my game (Huge, Monarch) I am researching Industrialization in 1255AD. Overall it feels, that even builder games are fun again.

I (Iroquois) started at a continent with Aztecs and Americans. I called it "America" Both other civs I eliminates early on. Settled the whole continent and disbanded all defenders, except for my mounted forces (30 MW/Knights/Cav's). Did all research alone (yes, it's worth again to research! ) till Navigation. Made contact with one continent with France and Russia (far behind, about Monarchy/Republic) and one continent with all the rest (slightly behind, but not much).

I intend to end the game with builder strategy. It's fun again.

	24-04-2002 01:33									#56
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The tech rate is definitely the same, maybe even faster. On Emperor difficulty with 1.21, the latest i've ever entered the middle ages was 800 BC, usually a good half a dozen turns before that. Its currently 660 AD, and it looks like we'll be entering the industrial age in 10-12 turns.

You can take cities by refusing to renogiate the peace treaty the first time around? That'll be great, as my word isn't worth the paper its written on in my current game. Been having quite a bit of trouble acquiring techs, so i've been doing it through peace treaties. Techs are devaluing less since the weakest civs aren't recieving them, and are a bit harder to buy.

I've always had trouble getting a high science output, and still be able to maintain and good sized military in the first third or so of the game. If i'm building libraries/universities, i'm not building a military, and the AI walks all over me. I'm not too good with this balancing act. Early and frequent warmongering is an even better option now under 1.21, with techs being more difficult to buy.

	24-04-2002 02:17									#57
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Arrian, given your four luxuries, could you switch over to republic right now despite having no happiness wonders or marketplaces? If so, that infrastructure would probably be built pretty quickly. Regardless, it sounds like you have the longterm resources - Pyramids, HE, the luxuries - to go for a big win.

Sir Ralph, you seem to be saying that techs are worth researching early in the game. Is that right? I don't see what's changed to make this part of the game any different.

No. Dice, I have never built more than one library before my first series of wars. I usually haven't even researched literature - it tends to be one of the spoils of those peace negotiations. Given how many shields are required to build research institutions, I don't see how it's possible to build them while fighting in the early game.

	24-04-2002 03:04									#58
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Yes researching is IMHO worth the effort again, since the so called tech whoring has been stopped and the tech trading of the AI during your turn hasn't been brought back. In my 5 ancient ages I have been researching, it made sense and I could compete with the AI.

	24-04-2002 04:06									#59
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Wow, we sort of have two dipolar views on tech trading... I think there may be some complex interaction between map size, number of civs, and difficulty level.

I've only started one game, but the tech traded verrryy slowly initially, and then started to speed up right at the end of the Ancient Age. Ignoring RL Dark Ages, which you sort of have to in the game, it feels right that early advancement of knowledge is slow overall, and then acclerates as you hit the Medieval Age.

I agree with Sir Ralph, BTW: early research makes sense again.

	24-04-2002 04:38									#60
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I even outresearched a continent with 11 AIs alone. I had to, because my neighbors, the Americans and Aztecs, had been gone in Manitu's arms . I switched to Republic, and since I have only 2 luxuries at the continent (I have the silks and incense monopoly in the game), I put the luxury slider at 10%, that helped a lot. Then I built a lot of workers to trim my cities for a free palace jump (got in the city of my choice), used the workers to improve tiles quickly (roads!) and soon I had a killer commerce and techs coming every 4-6 turns.