21-04-2002 23:45									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Natan But I'm sure that some German Jews are scared because I've read interviews with them in several publications, and I'm not talking about this sort of opinion piece.

pa-ra-noi-a

did I get the syllables right?

Sava - I'm sorry, I seem to have misunderstood you. But as a matter of fact, I've seen plenty of (mostly American) posters say pretty similar things whenever someone criticized the hypocrisy or the style of warfare in the Afghanistan campaign. Phrases like "Why don't you just say you support the Taleban? " were pretty popular whenever someone said "We should care for the innocent victims of the bombings more"

	22-04-2002 01:03									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Same ol sh1t from the Euro posters, excuses and claims it's all "blown out of proportion.".

Floyd, you got it wrong again, as usual.
Was the USA engaged in a war that Japan started when leMay was flying about?
He was Commanding General of 20AF, not a Group commander, btw, and Napalm was invented in WWII, so it was not a "precurser".
You sure your studing history?
You sure to get an awful lot wrong about it.

Europe's attitude towards the ME as reported here in the USA is almost maniaclly Palestian, if this isn't so, the BBC and Ruethers and a lot of other news services are lying.

And a lot of you Euro apologists are actually parroting people in the 1930s, they said nearly the exact same thing during the beginings of the holocaust, that it's not true, things aern't that way, ect.

Let's make it clear one more time, since a lot of you still don't get it:
Palestine ignored the UN partion plan of 29 November 1947, instead lauched a genocidal war on the jews, and have NEVER changed that postion.
Ever.

The UN, to it's ever lasting shame, has passed one anti-semitic resolution after another, such as the filty one that says Zionism (the Jewish desire to live in Israel) is RACIST!

In fact, the UN's man in the ME, a Norwegan, has taken the Palestinain side in everything.

Hate crimes against Jews and their property is going on in Europe, as are the attacks on Israel.
I often hear about how wrong Israel is, to move militatary forces into the west bank.
Have any of you read the Oslo accords of the early 90s that Arafat signed?
Any of you?
He agreed NOT to smuggle arms and exploseves, not to train or harbor terrorists, to arrest and prosecute terrorists in his area of juristiction.
He has done the EXACT opposite.
I often hear what a war criminal Sharon is, based on Lebbenon 1982.
Do you know what the charge is?
That he allowed allied Christian militia to pass a jewish checkpoint.
The Militia entered a PLO refugee camp and killed people there.
The accusation is Sharon KNEW they would do that.
There is your "war crime".
In other words, nonsense.
Just repeatting Islamic anti-jewish propaganda.

People here are fond of saying it's both of them, they both cause the problems.
Bull.
The Jews have offered concessions for years, the answer is terrorism from the Pal side.

The Pals want the jews dead, and Europe's attitude is right in line with that, with threats of trade sanctions and condemnations when the Jews fight back.

Just who do you think was shooting at the Jews in those towns?
They AGREED not to have weapons, yet they are heavily armed.

I think the Pals should have a homeland in Gaza and the West Bank, but forget the 67 borders, they started the wars in 48, they can't say we want it all back now.
They and their Islamic supporters have to move into the 21st century, stop the anti-Israeli hatered and the funding of murder, and accept that Israel has a right to exsist.
Many of you seem like you don't think they do have that right.

Oh, and Imran, your stupid riff about the USA dening it's history is wearing VERY thin, I have seen nobody who is proud of black slavery or the destruction of Native Americans.
As for bombings in WWII, war is about killing, making the enemy surrender. Japan refused when it knew it was beaten, in effect, they brought it on themselves with their own behavior, to allied prisoners and the attrocities they commited in China, Korea, The Phillipiennes, Malaya, Burma....everywhere they stepped foot.
This bull that Americans can't condem terrorists because they are not clean is childish and extremly stupid.

	22-04-2002 01:46									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 And a lot of you Euro apologists are actually parroting people in the 1930s, they said nearly the exact same thing during the beginings of the holocaust, that it's not true, things aern't that way, ect.

You're probably referring to me here...

What can I say, I know it sounds like that. But at the same time I know there's a borderline, and as long as it is just a few cases each year (and it'sless than that), that line has not been crossed.

Though I mus say your worries are justified, because the words are just the same. "Not a problem yet", "will be over soon" etc. But I think that combined with the right amount of vigilance, knowledge and rational thinking it is better than that total and utter paranoia that turns anyone into the light of a racist criminal that dares speak up against exaggerations and false parallels.

If you want to stay at the example of my person - I'm not being blind, and I'm open to whatever you tell me as long as you don't get on me personally. And I'm ready t realize that something must be done when something must be done. At the moment vigilance seems to be the only right thing. You just can't undertake steps that limit people's liberties and rights because there have been crimes with racist backgrounds, and I'm somewhat afraid any hardliner action against said "racism" and "latent anti-semitism in the society" would mean exactly that.

I'd rather speak out what I think and debate in a rational and sophisticated way than being 'hardline' against anything that is not siding with the ultimate 'pro-whatever' points, where whatever is the name of the people that have had a tragical fate in the past. I hope I'm not missing some crucial point here, Chris...

	22-04-2002 01:50									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

To get this straight - of course there is anti-semitism in Europe, I live in a country where considerable parts of the youth are misguided into that direction. But it's not a main factor in our societies, at least not an apparent one.

One of the main problems - there are people that "prove" the presence of "latent anti-semitism" in the German society with the very fact that we don't buy into anything they tell us. 'Our' attempts to discuss matters in a rational way are once more sold as anti-semitism.

But that leads to another problem - the Central Council of Jews in Germany (damn, how is that called in English) loses its credibility. BECAUSE some of them are so eager, they actually might lose a lot of protection in the future.

	22-04-2002 01:59									#65
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just don't want to see that happen again, the holocaust.

Many people seem to have an anti-Israeli crusade built up in their minds, saying stupid things like they are facists and such.

They are fighting back the only way they can.

	22-04-2002 02:01									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes that is probably true, but one should not forget the history of that conflict.

And who says they're fascists? Apolytoenrs? That's truly a shame then...

	22-04-2002 02:01									#67
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Natan And what about when any talk about anti-Semitism is considered Zionist propaganda and support for Ariel Sharon?

What about it, Natan? Is that theory going anywhere or did you just feel like stating an opposite to my post for the hell of it?

If such a situation as you describe exists (and it doesn't in my vicinity) then I'll happily ridicule it. Feel free to provide examples.

	22-04-2002 02:10									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I often hear what a war criminal Sharon is, based on Lebbenon 1982. Do you know what the charge is? That he allowed allied Christian militia to pass a jewish checkpoint. The Militia entered a PLO refugee camp and killed people there. The accusation is Sharon KNEW they would do that. There is your "war crime". In other words, nonsense.

1982. Lebanon.

Ariel Sharon- "Hey you heavily-armed and shifty looking Christian militia men! Where are you going?"

Christian Militiaman- "We're going into that refugee camp that's full of Muslims."

Ariel Sharon- "Why?"

Christian Militiaman- "Um......I....um....we want to have a look around? Yes, that's it. We're tourists."

Ariel Sharon- "Oh. OK then. You're not planning on shooting anyone?"

Christian Militiaman- "Ooooooh, lordy no. The thought never crossed my mind. Would you help me load this box of grenades onto the truck?"

Ariel Sharon- "No problem. Mind how you go, now!"


So is he a war criminal, or just too stupid to hold office? You see, on hearing his defence, the memory that springs helplessly to mind was that Eichmann's defence was that he just organised railway timetables. I'm really not convinced of Sharon's innocence. When he was elected, I thought to myself "Forget peace in the ME until he's gone". I think I was right.

	22-04-2002 02:12									#69
	Tired of ads?

Are you sure this is the right debate for cynicism?

But then it is never right in place, so it must always be the right thing to say

	22-04-2002 02:13									#70
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

He was defense minister.
You really think a check point phoned Tel Aviv and asked his opinion?

	22-04-2002 02:14									#71
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny What about it, Natan? Is that theory going anywhere or did you just feel like stating an opposite to my post for the hell of it? If such a situation as you describe exists (and it doesn't in my vicinity) then I'll happily ridicule it. Feel free to provide examples.

See Urban Ranger's post - I explicitly say that I'm opposed to these attempts to link anti-Semitism in Europe to what's going on in Israel, and his response is to ramble about "of course, [people who think anti-Semitism doesn't exist in Europe] he might just be a PA operative."

	22-04-2002 02:16									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: So is he a war criminal, or just too stupid to hold office? You see, on hearing his defence, the memory that springs helplessly to mind was that Eichmann's defence was that he just organised railway timetables. I'm really not convinced of Sharon's innocence. When he was elected, I thought to myself "Forget peace in the ME until he's gone". I think I was right.

Not to mention an Israeli tribunal at the time declared Sharon unfit to be Defense Minister for the actions in Lebanon.

	22-04-2002 02:17									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well it's fairly academic. The latest refugee camp debacle will settle his reputation, one way or another.

	22-04-2002 02:17									#74
	Increase Your PM Length

Well Im, maybe he was being too soft?

[/zionist]

	22-04-2002 02:19									#75
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny 1982. Lebanon. Ariel Sharon- "Hey you heavily-armed and shifty looking Christian militia men! Where are you going?" Christian Militiaman- "We're going into that refugee camp that's full of Muslims." Ariel Sharon- "Why?" Christian Militiaman- "Um......I....um....we want to have a look around? Yes, that's it. We're tourists." Ariel Sharon- "Oh. OK then. You're not planning on shooting anyone?" Christian Militiaman- "Ooooooh, lordy no. The thought never crossed my mind. Would you help me load this box of grenades onto the truck?"

If you want to discuss this reasonably, they were sent there to round up terrorists. The Israelis thought they could trust them because this particular group of militamen had been trained by the Israelis. Next you'll be telling me that every Western leader engaged in a war crime by supporting the Northern Alliance, which has as nasty a history as the Phalangists.

quote: So is he a war criminal, or just too stupid to hold office?

You know, NATO let those KLA thugs rampage through Kosovo - do you think Tony Blair is a war criminal or too stupid to hold office?

By the way, why is it that Sharon prevents peace in the Middle East because of Sabra and Shattila, but Arafat's involvement in terrorism for 30 years doesn't?

	22-04-2002 02:19									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Well it's fairly academic. The latest refugee camp debacle will settle his reputation, one way or another.

We don't know what really happened there, and I don't buy into any story of either side. I'll wait with any comments until I've got reports from international organizations or at least decent statements. Until then I'd be careful with comments like that, although that man deserves more than a Hague trial should the truth be proven less than fitting into humanist ideals.

	22-04-2002 02:20									#77
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Well it's fairly academic. The latest refugee camp debacle will settle his reputation, one way or another.

If they really want Sharon. they should look at unit 101 from the early 50s.

	22-04-2002 03:34									#78
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by BeBro I agree it is inexcusable, but these things are done either by neonazi idiots or by radicalized members of Arab minorities. Extremists exist in nearly every country, remember the Oklahoma bombing. You can´t say Europe in general is antisemitic because of criminal actions of certain individuals...

The number of actions in France in particular is becoming extermely troubling. And its not just the actions, its the apparent low priority the French state is giving to this. German Jews may not live in fear, but apparently French Jews do, and they protested en masse recently in response.

And its also the one-sided view of the middle east, in particular the vicious anti-Israel rhetoric employed, including some traditionally anti-semitic themes. It is necassary for Europeans of good will to repudiate not just anti-semitic acts, but anti-semitic rhetoric as well, just as people of good will in the US have repudiated anti-muslim rhetoric.

LOTM

	22-04-2002 03:46									#79
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion pa-ra-noi-a did I get the syllables right?

I guess my problem is that first you say that only americans say there is an anti-semitism problem in Europe, and when someone cites European Jews you discount them. Do they not count as Europeans?? Here in the US white people of good will have learned that if blacks claim to be afraid, or to experience racism, that needs to be taken seriously. We can disoute the statistics, or how much is only perception rather than reality, or even self-interest, but we cannot simply say its paranoia and that black people dont count as witnesses to the state of race relations in America. That you CAN say such things with regard to European Jews is troubling.

Note please - I fully realize that few europeans are genuine anti-semites, and many are fully people of good will. I do not think it helps matters to pretend that there is no problem, however, or to resort to name calling to anyone who cites a problem.


LOTM

	22-04-2002 03:49									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Nopey, also many Germans (and not only German Jews) als oclaim there's antisemitism in Germany.

Last edited by Ecthy on 22-04-2002 at 04:00

	22-04-2002 03:52									#81
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There's anti-semetism all over Europe.
Maybe fewer in Germany because they have worked really hard to combat it.


It gets minor forms like: "Jews... hmmrf..." to forms like "Jews run things".

Do I feel it is a minor problem in comparison to the anti-immigration movement and the racism... yes. (but I can be wrong).

	22-04-2002 03:52									#82
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

LOTM, exactly what "traditonal anti-Semitic themes" do you see in the "viscious anti-Israel rhetoric?"

	22-04-2002 22:44									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Natan You know, NATO let those KLA thugs rampage through Kosovo - do you think Tony Blair is a war criminal or too stupid to hold office?

Both. What's your point here?

quote: By the way, why is it that Sharon prevents peace in the Middle East because of Sabra and Shattila, but Arafat's involvement in terrorism for 30 years doesn't?

Oh, it does. However there's statisically less chance of two irredeemable ****head's heads exploding spontaneously than there would be if there was only one. Therefore the election of Sharon was a bad move.

	23-04-2002 01:29									#84
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Both. What's your point here? Oh, it does. However there's statisically less chance of two irredeemable ****head's heads exploding spontaneously than there would be if there was only one. Therefore the election of Sharon was a bad move.

I suppose I can't disagree with consistency. I just wanted to make sure you applied this standard to other leaders as well.

	23-04-2002 04:13									#85
	Suffering from ads?

"Maybe fewer in Germany because they have worked really hard to combat it."

German anti-Semitism has few targets within their own borders anymore I guess.

I guess they just worked really hard to ...?

Don't let the Germans off too easy, my cousin is half-Japanese and living in Frankfurt, she tells me in her e-mails that there is always some level of discrimination against 'foreign looking' people, daily.

I think the facts are 'pro-Israel' nowadays. Provocation as it was to go to the temple mount, Arafat has shown he is a terrorist and suicide bomber creator, and a killer of innocents.

IMO, he should be 'removed' and and the next PA leader should be an Israeli backed puppet.

An Israeli 'patsy' in charge would allow moderates to emerge in the PA, backed by muscle. If democratic and humane leadership won't spontaneously emerge from the Palestinian people, then the Israelis should impose a friendly government.