Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Editor of New Republic on Euro anti-semitism
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Editor of New Republic on Euro anti-semitism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Martin Peretz, editor of the New Republic, one of the oldest and most important opinion/analysis magazines in the US, has this to say about the recent events in Europe. Note that this was published before the results of the French election.


CAMBRIDGE DIARIST
Regrets
by Martin Peretz


Post date 04.15.02 | Issue date 04.22.02

The 1929 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. Secretary of State Frank Kellogg. And why not? The year before, he had persuaded the great powers to outlaw war. Among those that ratified the historic Kellogg-Briand pact were the democratic countries, plus Germany, Japan, and Italy. High-minded people, deluded that signed agreements shaped history, were delirious with joy. Barely a decade later, of course, most of the world was plunged into war. Did the committee that chose the prize's recipients have any second thoughts? After all, the very complaisance that the Norwegians honored surely encouraged the Axis to believe that the democracies would stand by as threats mounted. I know of no record that the committee expressed any regrets.

I had a sinking feeling when the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, and Yasir Arafat in the immediate aftermath of the Oslo accords and the handshake on the White House lawn. After all, Arafat's sole vocation in life was that of a terrorist, and, even if there were some sparse signs that he was ready to give up the murder of innocents, the choice was still morally unconscionable. As for Rabin and Peres, toughminded men beguiled by both Arafat and their own lifelong yearning for peace, they immediately attended to their obligations under the agreement--even transferring weapons to the militias of what they knew would be an emergent Palestinian state. Arafat, of course, immediately set about blowing Oslo up, a mission he completed at Camp David and Taba in late 2000. And now, with the peace agreement for which they gave the awards in tatters, the Nobel trustees do have regrets. Not, amazingly, about Arafat--but about Peres. According to the BBC, "Members of the Norwegian committee that awards the annual Nobel Peace Prize have launched an unprecedented verbal assault on Israeli Foreign Minister and Nobel Peace Laureate Shimon Peres," saying "they regretted that Mr. Peres' prize could not be recalled.... One member said Mr. Peres had not lived up to the ideals expressed when he accepted the prize." Poor Peres. He still, to this day, retains all the Oslo illusions that Arafat has trashed. But that is not enough for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish Europe and not enough for the guardians of the prize, which will itself soon look like trash.

The headquarters of anti-Semitic Europe today, just as during the Third Republic, is Paris. Every day brings news of another violent crime against French Jews and Jewish institutions, a wave of violence that most of the French oppose, but which the government of Jacques Chirac and Lionel Jospin has tolerated, even indulged, for far too long. Paris is also the headquarters of anti-American Europe. The latest expression of French anti-Americanism--aside from books claiming that the United States blew up the World Trade Center itself (see "Plot Development," by Max Berley, page 16)--is concern for the life of Zacarias Moussaoui, a French citizen and, according to the Justice Department, the would-be twentieth September 11 skyjacker. The U.S. government has charged him with six counts of conspiracy and will request the death penalty, which France abolished in 1981. The prospect of citoyen Moussaoui's execution has driven official Paris apoplectic. Yet the French are not exactly evenhanded in their hostility to capital punishment. After all, what have they said about the execution of suspected "conspirators" by France's ally, the Palestinian Authority? Last week, with the complicity of Arafat's regime, eleven supposed collaborators with Israel were murdered, their bodies dragged through the streets. A few days ago, six other such "collaborators" were sentenced to death by a quickie P.A. tribunal. But not a word has been heard from the enlightened anti-death penalty French, who seem to think that only the United States and Israel kill.

CAMBRIDGE DIARIST
Regrets
by Martin Peretz


Printer friendly
Post date 04.15.02 | Issue date 04.22.02 E-mail this article

The 1929 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. Secretary of State Frank Kellogg. And why not? The year before, he had persuaded the great powers to outlaw war. Among those that ratified the historic Kellogg-Briand pact were the democratic countries, plus Germany, Japan, and Italy. High-minded people, deluded that signed agreements shaped history, were delirious with joy. Barely a decade later, of course, most of the world was plunged into war. Did the committee that chose the prize's recipients have any second thoughts? After all, the very complaisance that the Norwegians honored surely encouraged the Axis to believe that the democracies would stand by as threats mounted. I know of no record that the committee expressed any regrets.

I had a sinking feeling when the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, and Yasir Arafat in the immediate aftermath of the Oslo accords and the handshake on the White House lawn. After all, Arafat's sole vocation in life was that of a terrorist, and, even if there were some sparse signs that he was ready to give up the murder of innocents, the choice was still morally unconscionable. As for Rabin and Peres, toughminded men beguiled by both Arafat and their own lifelong yearning for peace, they immediately attended to their obligations under the agreement--even transferring weapons to the militias of what they knew would be an emergent Palestinian state. Arafat, of course, immediately set about blowing Oslo up, a mission he completed at Camp David and Taba in late 2000. And now, with the peace agreement for which they gave the awards in tatters, the Nobel trustees do have regrets. Not, amazingly, about Arafat--but about Peres. According to the BBC, "Members of the Norwegian committee that awards the annual Nobel Peace Prize have launched an unprecedented verbal assault on Israeli Foreign Minister and Nobel Peace Laureate Shimon Peres," saying "they regretted that Mr. Peres' prize could not be recalled.... One member said Mr. Peres had not lived up to the ideals expressed when he accepted the prize." Poor Peres. He still, to this day, retains all the Oslo illusions that Arafat has trashed. But that is not enough for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish Europe and not enough for the guardians of the prize, which will itself soon look like trash.

The headquarters of anti-Semitic Europe today, just as during the Third Republic, is Paris. Every day brings news of another violent crime against French Jews and Jewish institutions, a wave of violence that most of the French oppose, but which the government of Jacques Chirac and Lionel Jospin has tolerated, even indulged, for far too long. Paris is also the headquarters of anti-American Europe. The latest expression of French anti-Americanism--aside from books claiming that the United States blew up the World Trade Center itself (see "Plot Development," by Max Berley, page 16)--is concern for the life of Zacarias Moussaoui, a French citizen and, according to the Justice Department, the would-be twentieth September 11 skyjacker. The U.S. government has charged him with six counts of conspiracy and will request the death penalty, which France abolished in 1981. The prospect of citoyen Moussaoui's execution has driven official Paris apoplectic. Yet the French are not exactly evenhanded in their hostility to capital punishment. After all, what have they said about the execution of suspected "conspirators" by France's ally, the Palestinian Authority? Last week, with the complicity of Arafat's regime, eleven supposed collaborators with Israel were murdered, their bodies dragged through the streets. A few days ago, six other such "collaborators" were sentenced to death by a quickie P.A. tribunal. But not a word has been heard from the enlightened anti-death penalty French, who seem to think that only the United States and Israel kill.


Martin Peretz is editor-in-chief and chairman of TNR.

Ecthy is offline Ecthy
Emperor
Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

3/10

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

2.5/10

2.5/10

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:05 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

less.

Ecthy is offline Ecthy
Emperor
Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm just having my first (and last) meal today so I'm being pretty optimistic, guys

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:13 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Martin Peretz, editor of the New Republic, one of the oldest and most important opinion/analysis magazines in the US


Does that mean the rest is even worse then this guy is? Cause this bloke is clearly a joke.

1.3/10

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Guys, he does have a point. Why isn't the Nobel committee concerned about how well Arafat has lived up to the ideals of the peace prize?

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
Emperor
all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Why are so many trolls one track? You just know if it's lord of the mark and he's trolling it's gonna be something like this. Boring!

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

1/10

What a dumb article.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:22 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
Why are so many trolls one track?


I call them "one trick ponies", and most trolls qualify under that heading because coming up with exciting new trolls is often a difficult process, whereas using the same troll over and over again is much easier and faster.

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I love this. Instead of reasoned debate on the issues, you give things some arbitrary rating based on how much you disagree with it. I'll admit, it's a lot of people who do this, but you all could at least recognize the basic point of the article: Europe holds the US and Israel to a different standard than that set for the Palestinians.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:30 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
Europe holds the US and Israel to a different standard than that set for the Palestinians.


It would be worth debating the issue if everybody didn't already know this.

Gibsie is offline Gibsie
Emperor
all over the proverbial shop
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"But that is not enough for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish Europe"

That's not a troll to you??

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 04:33 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Europe holds the US and Israel to a different standard than that set for the Palestinians.


The US holds Israel and Pakistan to a different standard than set for the Palestinians, Iraqis and North Koreans.

Both statements are probably just as false, or just as true. Your choice.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 06:01 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hardly that respected a journal.

Felch is offline Felch
Prince
Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 06:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's very paritsan, like The Nation, but that doesn't mean that the people who write for it are liars and idiots. There is a legitimate point in there, that people shouldn't criticize the Israelis without criticizing the Palestinians. Even propaganda has some kernel of truth.

Bottom line: Israel is wrong. The PA is wrong. If you blame one, recognize that both are guilty of reprehensible actions.

Adam Smith is offline Adam Smith
King
Maryland, USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 06:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Hardly that respected a journal.
Note to non-US posters:
Most liberals in the US treat The New Republic as holy writ.

Natan is offline Natan
Prince
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 06:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Most of the stuff in TNR is pretty good. They're anti-Bush but they were also anti-Clinton, pro-gay rights, anti-ANWR drilling, but pro war on terrorism. They've got some very interesting writers, like Andrew O'Sullivan.

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 16:06 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

quote:
Most of the stuff in TNR is pretty good.


so is this article an exception?

Sava
Guest

Not Yet
time:
  Old Post 22-04-2002 16:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Can I give a negative score? -1.0

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 16:22 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Smith
Note to non-US posters:
Most liberals in the US treat The New Republic as holy writ.


While the New Republic is "the" magazine for the liberals in the US... please remember that it's circulation is LESS the 100K.
Many liberals in the US don't even know it exists let alone read it

Sava
Guest

Not Yet
time:
  Old Post 22-04-2002 16:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Ming


While the New Republic is "the" magazine for the liberals in the US... please remember that it's circulation is LESS the 100K.
Many liberals in the US don't even know it exists let alone read it


Good call. Even a psychotic liberal like me hasn't heard of it.

Adam Smith is offline Adam Smith
King
Maryland, USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 19:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ming:
quote:
it's circulation is LESS the 100K.

How does that compare with other major political opinion magazines?
Dissent, Commentary, and The Nation come to mind.
Others?
I suspect that all of them have relatively small circulations.

I have never been in the business of promoting The New Republic, or anybody like them, so I will leave it at that.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 20:55 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Over the years, I've placed tons of ads in most of those magazines.

The New Republic (1914) = 98K
The Nation (1865) = 94K
National Review (1955) = 156K
Commentary (1945) = 26K
Foreign Affairs = 109K
Human Events (1944) = 80K
Mother Jones (1976) = 165K
Reason (1968) = 53K
The Weekly Standard (1995) = 54K

Then the Big Three Hard Core Washington Insider pubs:

National Journal (1969) = 10K
CQ Weekly (1945) =7K
The Hill (1994) = 20K

You will note that TNR is not the oldest... or the largest...

The National Review, which is TNR's conservative counterpart, has a much higher circulation.

Roland is offline Roland
Emperor
Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 21:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Shouldn' t that be: "How does that compare with other major satire magazines?"

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 21:14 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

The most funny are the magazines that think they're serious - like this one
Entertainment guaranteed

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 22:45 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All the magazines I listed take themselves VERY SERIOUSLY

Adalbertus is offline Adalbertus
Prince
Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:19
  Old Post 22-04-2002 23:02 Visit Adalbertus's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
The 1929 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. Secretary of State Frank Kellogg. And why not? The year before, he had persuaded the great powers to outlaw war. Among those that ratified the historic Kellogg-Briand pact were the democratic countries, plus Germany, Japan, and Italy.


To give some concrete point: In 1929, Germany was a perfectly democratic country. Hitler came to power in 1933. This is something a journalist should be aware of.

The rest of the article is written in a purely polemic style, and as such I don't take it serious.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:19
  Old Post 23-04-2002 01:13 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If I want news, I stick to The Economist. If I want entertainment, I watch cartoons. Papers like TNR are somewhere in the middle--they don't satisfy you either way.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 23-04-2002 01:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Over the years, I've placed tons of ads in most of those magazines.

The New Republic (1914) = 98K
The Nation (1865) = 94K
National Review (1955) = 156K
Commentary (1945) = 26K
Foreign Affairs = 109K
Human Events (1944) = 80K
Mother Jones (1976) = 165K
Reason (1968) = 53K
The Weekly Standard (1995) = 54K

Then the Big Three Hard Core Washington Insider pubs:

National Journal (1969) = 10K
CQ Weekly (1945) =7K
The Hill (1994) = 20K

You will note that TNR is not the oldest... or the largest...

The National Review, which is TNR's conservative counterpart, has a much higher circulation.


1. What type(s) of messages did you deliver? What types of audiences did you target? This is fascinating.

2. Did you consider using the Washington Post, New York Times or Wall Street Journal to hit your target? Maybe the Sunday opinion section of the NYT or WP?

3. NR and TNR aren't as much of counterparts as people say they are. (I know it is popular to do so...) TNR is more scholarly in tone than NR (analogy might be NPR and Limbaugh...although both mags are better than their radio analogues..) TNR is also more middle of the road than hard left. Where NR is pretty hard right.

 
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0648 seconds (91.81% PHP - 8.19% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net