25-04-2002 11:53									#1
	Happiness Got spare money?

I wish for this thread to be solely devoted to issues concerning happiness and citizen morale within empires in Call To
Power 2 (CTP2). I've been playing Civilization 2 for a few years now trying to perfect a strategy of developing the optimal happiness for my empire on the easiest level. For example, in my most recent game (perfectly designed map, etc.), I had a republic with all cities having "We Love The Consul Day" by 3300/3200 BC.
Now I just bought CTP2 almost two weeks ago and I find that there seems to be limits. Can food rations be set above 10kg to enhance happiness? Can wages be set above 20 gold/worker to further enhance happiness?
In all these types of games (Master of Orion is no exception), a big part of my strategy is optimizing industrial productivity. Therefore, I find it less profitable to enhance happiness by cutting work hours (especially pre-Industrial Revolution, before that revolution, much work needs to be done!). I was wondering if there is any way to get cities to celebrate in CTP2. I have read through the entire instruction manual and through several of these threads and have seen only very vague references to city celebrations. Are such celebrations even possible in CTP2? If they are, then do their effects vary from gov. type to gov. type as they do in Civilization 2? Is there any government type in CTP2 for which a city celebration would generally result in a rapid population increase with minimal food surplus as in Civilization 2 under their republic and democracy governments?
I really do prefer the macromanagement aspects of CTP2 (when I actually do have time to play it). And, like Alpha Centauri, one can build cities on the ocean too!

	25-04-2002 17:13									#2
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In the first place, welcome to CtP2 and Apolyton!

More to the point, celebrations do exist in CtP2 but their effects are minimal. I think the only result is that the city grows slightly faster, but I'm not entirely sure about that (I'm sure others know more about this though).

The best happiness strategy in CtP2 is probably to keep happiness as low as possible, but high enough to prevent (massive) riots and revolts. Lower happiness means less entertainers, longer working hours, etc; in short, that more resources are being collected. So the net result of low happiness (compared to high happiness and celebrations) is in most cases faster growth, higher production and more rapid scientific advancement.

So, as crude as it may be, it is in CtP2 the responsibility of you, as leader of your nation, to keep your citizens as unhappy as possible without making them angry enough to depose you Very realistic model, if I may say so myself

(Yes, I agree celebrations should give stronger advantages, but at this point this is simply not the case)

	26-04-2002 02:20									#3
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Yes, if the people are happy then that means you are feeding them to much and giving them to much time off. You must start to think like a dirty capitalist and begin to squeeze them for everything they are worth. Aim for a happiness rating of around 72.

	26-04-2002 02:31									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes, if the people are happy then that means you are feeding them to much and giving them to much time off. You must start to think like a dirty capitalist and begin to squeeze them for everything they are worth. Aim for a happiness rating of around 72.

My thoughts exactly. I arrange my cities in the National Manager by descending happiness, that way when I'm squeezing them I can tell at a quick glance which cities are getting shaky with my rule. If there were a more tangible result for keeping an empire happy over long periods, I may have played it differently, but at the end of the day, I get no real reward that my people were so happy they were "green".

	26-04-2002 07:04									#5
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For all my griping about the current corporate state, I play CTP2 the same way. As long as my citizens arn't bouncing bricks off the militia, I'll do everything I can to screw them.

Its like I once said about corporations providing stress classes. They only do it for the same reason you sqwash leaves into a trash bag - so you can get more leaves into it.

You need to play Cradle - there sure isn't time for happyness there - you are too busy with all the fighting.

	26-04-2002 22:00									#6
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In Civ2, happiness did seem a lot more important, than in CTP2. In Democracy especially, happiness would make your civ grow like a weed. In CTP2 I have yet to find any real benefit other than to keep the cities from rioting. Therefore, I usually put my slider bars as far over as possible without making the people pissed.

Can anyone tell me, does happiness of the population effect the final score, the way that it did in Civ2? I haven't really paid attention I guess.

	26-04-2002 22:42									#7
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I've been playing the CTP series for quite sometime now and I never thought of pushing the envelope of making my people unhappy! Great concept!

	26-04-2002 23:30									#8
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I'm not sure. Is there even an WLTK day in CTP2? For all the time I've played the game I've never once tried to make my people happy.

	26-04-2002 23:37									#9
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Yes i squeeze my poor people to the brink of revolution too......i just never really think about it. Makes me a bit sad on reflection, maybe we should have Unions to represent the people and take the Goverments(us) to court for Human Rights breaches!!! Viva La revoultion! - i hate having to sweat to make a living......

	27-04-2002 02:10									#10
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge Can anyone tell me, does happiness of the population effect the final score, the way that it did in Civ2? I haven't really paid attention I guess.

I *think* it does, but I'm not sure, never really pay attention to it either. Means very little though as only the last turn of the game counts: you can have very unhappy citizens throughout the game and only make them happy in the very last turn and get a huge bonus for happiness

Oerdin,
Yes, there is a WLTK day, but, as I said before, it doesn't do much...

	27-04-2002 08:22									#11
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Technically, happy cities should grow faster, and unhappy cities should shrink.

Is there a mod in the wind for this...?

	08-05-2002 00:48									#12
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Well, there are some advantages to great happiness...

Firstly, as mentioned, very low happiness leads to riots, and if low enough for long enough, to a revolting city which becomes another empire (albeit a mini-empire of one city)... Rioting cities don't grow at all and don't produce at all.

Secondly, with several extra points of happiness on your side, you can "push" a city beyond it's normal limits - for instance kicking up the production to very high levels when you want to produce something in an emergency or finish a wonder quickly during a wonder-race. (sometimes you have a specific city located near mountains and has a high production output or sometimes a huge city on production-poor grasslands or desert)

High pollution from population or production can also be outweighed by general happiness. As can "empire size" or "capitol distance" unhappiness.

All these instances have occured to me when I've been behind the curve for research and need to expand, yet haven't discovered new gov't types with larger max city ratings or different pollution tolerances.

A final advantage of high happiness which I find I often use is this: to overcome "war discontent" as I am often at war with one nation for a long time.

In all these cases, I usually try to have the national happiness high enough to avoid the use of entertainers since they sap an individual city's labor/science efficiency quite a bit. And I am pretty fastidious about having plenty of shrines/basilica's/movie palaces, etc. to help boost happiness.

To answer the original post's question regarding pushing wages/incomes over the limit.. well this can't be done strictly speaking, but you can change the scale of the slider with different governments. Some governments have a higher max wage/ration.

	08-05-2002 00:55									#13
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Final thoughts:

Higher happiness also protects against spies inciting revolution, which you will usually need when playing against me ;-)

It also protects against cleric conversion (again, I use this tactic a lot...)

In CTP1 i seem to recall points for number of celebrations but haven't seen this in CTP2. However, isn't there a negative hit for rioting?

Also, there are certain feats of wonder and certain wonders that give your empire a happiness bonus for a few turns... is there NO advantage to this aside from the ones I mentioned earlier?

Locutus thinks you may grow faster. Another way I just thought of is when you get a (for instance) +5 happy bonus for 10 turns, you can use these 10 turns to crank down your empire wage/ration greatly for the duration - and get 10 turns of bank!

So, in summary, a crafty application of strategies can yield good returns on happiness.

I've never tried Locutus' suggestion of keeping people nearly-unhappy. Is the increased production simply a function of turning down your rations/wages so you bank more? Or are "unhappy" citizens actually intrinsically more productive in the game engine?

	06-06-2004 04:03									#14
	War Discontent Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sometime early on during the Ancient Age, I conquered the Cuban civ. I'm now in the Genetic Age and I'm noticing that all of the cities I've taken from other civs STILL HAVE WAR DISCONTENT affecting them!! How is that possible? I have excellent relations with all nations and haven't been at war with anyone for a good number of turns...

Aside from that, I wiped the Cuban civ out of existence hundreds of years ago. How is it that they could still be pissed off about this? If this was Civ3, then the citizens of the old Cuban civ would now all have converted their nationality to my own (American). This is quite a lengthy process in Civ3, but it looks like in CTP2 there is simply no way to keep a conquered city and have them as happy as cities I originally settled.

I'm playing unmodded and with the latest official patch (albeit still through Modswapper). Do any or all of the mods fix this stupid oversight on Activision's part?

What's up with that?

	06-06-2004 04:09									#15
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This is also affecting other cities I've taken from other civs over the years that are still on the map.

	06-06-2004 04:12									#16
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It is my understanding that war discountent has nothing to do with war but rather with how many units you have outside of your cities at any given time. Is war discontent effecting all your cities or just the ones you conquered? Maybe someone working on the sourcecode can tell you exactly how war discontent works.

	06-06-2004 04:47									#17
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Yes, EPW is right, you're confusing war discontent with conquest distress.

Last edited by J Bytheway on 06-06-2004 at 14:45

	06-06-2004 05:45									#18
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I asked a while ago for someone to look into the sourcecode about war discontent and how it works, heres the thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=111265

quote: So, total = (militaryUnitsOutOfCities - WarDiscontentMaxUnits) * WarDiscontentPerUnit And then (per city): warDiscontent = total/number_of_your_cities I'll try to track down 'AtHomeRadius' now. Edit: Yuk. Basically, if an army is further than AtHomeRadius away from one of it's cities, it may contribute to some 'overseas' measure, but I can't find where this is used.

Probably worth reading the rest of the small thread, to get a good view on it.

	06-06-2004 06:01									#19
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Ahhhh yes, I see what you mean. I only checked my conquered cities before, which all had war discontent... it's actually ALL of my cities that do. I have a very large contingent of troops guarding the border of a war-like Koreans, but we aren't at war.

I also had an army here and an army there out in the field in many different areas... some fortying my forts out in the frontiers, etc. I didn't realize this was such an issue... in Civ3 it isn't. Once I moved all my units into my cities the war discontent dropped to 0 for all cities. Excellent!

I have a few more questions to throw out there about this troop deployment issue... does this only come into play for land units? Does this affect the navy? I assume Diplomats don't count, but what about other special units?

I know that different governments having varying tolerance for martial law and that the government affects military support costs... but does a particular government affect war discontent? How many units have to be out in the field before war discontent starts rising?

Sorry for all of these rudimentary questions, I'm just used to playing Civ3 where this is not an issue.

	06-06-2004 07:42									#20
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On an entirely unrelated note, I've noticed that increasing the number of farmers in a city increases happiness... why is that?

	06-06-2004 09:05									#21
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I wonder if it can be modded to give a bonus for higher happiness...in order to add variety to gaming strategies...

	06-06-2004 18:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by djpsychonaut On an entirely unrelated note, I've noticed that increasing the number of farmers in a city increases happiness... why is that?

It reduces production and less production means less pollution and a lot of pollution makes your people unhappy.

-Martin

	08-06-2004 08:25									#23
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So, government does not affect war discontent? One would think that a government like Technocracy or Communism wouldn't be as strongly affected as liberal governments like Democracy, Republic, and Virtual Democracy.

	08-06-2004 19:30									#24
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I think government does affect war discontent.

	09-06-2004 04:48									#25
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Would someone have a spreadsheet with the multipliers?

	09-06-2004 05:27									#26
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The general information you're after is here:

http://apolyton.net/ctp2/modificati...df-Govern.shtml

There are two fields in each government record that relate the government's type to the amount of war discontent it generates:

quote: WarDiscontentMaxUnits - How many units you can have in the field before triggering war discontent. WarDiscontentPerUnit - Amount of Unhappiness to be created by each additional unit in the field

("in the field" = not in a city and not in a fort.) The specific numbers you're after are in govern.txt

	09-06-2004 17:33									#27
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Thanks, I'll take a look at that file. So, having a unit in a fort does count as "at home." Cool! Thanks!

	20-06-2004 02:30									#28
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Here's another oddity I'm seeing with Happiness. I am attempting the Science Fiction/Gaia Controller Victory. It might be helpful for me to explain more about my world position... I'm by far the top nation in the world. I have the best military, economy, and am the most scientifically advanced. I am also using the Virtual Democracy gov't type.

Over the course of my building up the satellites, controllers, and obelisks, the other nations (even seasoned allies) have declared war on me. I'm not really surprised since they want to try to keep me from winning. Anyways, I'm using this as an opportunity to take new territory and help get me to the 60% global coverage mark.

Something strange that I noticed when I went to check out the Happiness for these newly conquered cities (and when I say newly conquered, I mean I just rolled in with my Fusion Tanks) is that there is a POSITIVE value for Conquest Distress. I'm seeing a +4!!! People are that ecstatic to be CONQUERED???

It's certainly nice to be on the winning team, but does the game take that into account??

Last edited by djpsychonaut on 20-06-2004 at 02:37

	20-06-2004 02:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by djpsychonaut Something strange that I noticed when I went to check out the Happiness for these newly conquered cities (and when I say newly conquered, I mean I just rolled in with my Fusion Tanks) is that there is a POSITIVE value for Conquest Distress. I'm seeing a +4!!! People are that ecstatic to be CONQUERED??? It's certainly nice to be on the winning team, but does the game take that into account??

It's the government. People love to be in a Virtual Democracy.

	20-06-2004 03:34									#30
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...but they came from a Virtual Democracy...