25-04-2002 19:52									#1
	What rule do people most disagree on? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As many of you know, our group plays "rah" rules. While many may not agree that they are the best rules, at least it avoids the silly arguments up front and during the game on what is legal or not...

What rule or cheat comes up the most when setting up a game, and what comes up during a game... Just wondering

	25-04-2002 20:09									#2
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I see more "No City Bribe" requests being made.
Along with that is "No Great Wall", which I still fail to see how relates.
Overuse of Dips is a colossal painintheass, I do agree.

	25-04-2002 20:36									#3
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In game's like Rah's where its 2x production getting the great wall is a virtual victory. Most big climatic wars I see are ALWAYS preceeded with, you guessed it, hordes and hordes of diplomats to destory city walls........its gotten to the point where no one fights any other way than this.....its the best way after all right? LOL

That is the case when there's a no city bribe rule in effect. The problem with the city bribe is the forumla doesn't take into consideration some vital factors in the city, like the number of units garrisoned there. People can get really ripped off and lose a whole army or key defensive point then lose 2 or 3 more to their own troops. Also it gives democracy another strong power, and if city bribe is in effect there almost no governments ever besides democracy.

But the rules that usually have the most dividing effect are the production rules and movement rules. These lines usually keep alot of players seperate entirely.

But Ive thrown alot of rule mods out there and havent gotten alot of complaints.

	25-04-2002 20:51									#4
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I dislike the acceptance of disbanding units in other people's turns. You bribe a city, and suddenly your city doesnt have defense anymore. There is no defense against such tactic. I always play without this nonsense.

	25-04-2002 21:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson In game's like Rah's where its 2x production getting the great wall is a virtual victory.

Have to dissagree with that one. If that was the case, it would always be the first wonder built. It never is the first, or the second. Quite a few other wonders are built first. Because it expires too early, all GW does it guarentees that you will survive till Metalurgy. But even if you survive, it doesn't guarentee that you won't be woefully behind in techs, cities, pop, units, and whatever. And if you build gw instead of hg, gl, stwa, mics, pyramids, or going the ssc wonder route, you will find yourself behind unless you had resources to burn.

The only time I even will consider building gw, is when I'm already behind and find myself in the middle of a small map with everyone nipping at my borders. I'll last till metalurgy, but not much longer.

If the game isn't going to last till metalurgy, most people will say whoever gets hg will win on the powergraph, due to the extra pop explosion due to wltkds. OR to the one that builds stwa first and sends out the vet elephants first. A case can be make for many wonders. Personally, a couple of months ago, I trashed someone with GW. (he must have figured that no one would attack him, and had few crappy defenders.)

No wonder guarentees a "VIRTUAL WIN" unless you're playing with very inexperienced players.

RAH

I have agreed in the past (a couple of times) to ban GW in a few duels. But since duels move along so quickly, you always get to metalurgy in enough time to enjoy trashing your opponent. I'll concede GW if I get some of the other more important wonders.

	25-04-2002 21:32									#6
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Pyramids affects the graph as much, if not more, than HG, RAH.

	25-04-2002 21:36									#7
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Depends on how long the game goes and how experienced you are at really milking wltkds. But there are circumstances where I would agree, but there are others that I won't.

RAH

	25-04-2002 21:48									#8
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Ah. A disagreement.
A Happy Wonder does have significant impact. Together with Pyramids, the graph is shot.

	25-04-2002 22:40									#9
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Yeah, when I get all the good wonders, I'm unstopable.

In a competive MP game, you take what you can get when it comes to wonders. Rarely do you get ALL the good ones.

If I get shut out on the happy wonders and figure SOL and Communism is the route, then Pyramids is VERY important.

But as always, every game is different, and you have to be flexible.

RAH

	25-04-2002 23:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Pyramids affects the graph as much, if not more, than HG, RAH.

Pyramids are useless if you use republic in 2x. A republic player will always dominate.

	25-04-2002 23:29									#11
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While a agree with you 90% it's not TOTALLY worthless, Pyramids can be useful once your cities can't celebrate anymore, and helping them get to size three so they can start celebrating.

RAH

	25-04-2002 23:33									#12
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Yeah Guess I was a little too broad. In small map duelish sort of games, GW does take on a huge ammount of importanance than say in the one the large diplo games, where its rarly if ever built. Alot of the GL duel style games I had to look over etc......almost always ended before metagulry.....

Going masonry -> poly -> Fued -> Mono

Staying in monarchy and getting GW, and Sun Tzu is the ultimate form I'd guess for a duel.

	25-04-2002 23:56									#13
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Yeah, in that context, your orignal post is more acurate. Which is why I've occasionally agreed to ban GW in duels.
But on the other hand, All of our games are on small worlds and in duels we usually get past Metalury anyway. And when you get to calvary, you don't have to knock down the walls, just have enough vet calvary.

RAH

	26-04-2002 04:20									#14
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In our Australian games, the only rule ever debated is whether we form an orderly queue to berate Deity for his slow play or just broadside him en masse.

	26-04-2002 04:36									#15
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Now that's a tough one to argue about...

	26-04-2002 04:49									#16
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The thing I see most is city/unit bribe question.

Personally, I hate diplos/spys.

	26-04-2002 08:13									#17
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Do people feel as though spies unbalance the game....there are so many things you can do with them, that it makes them so tough to defend against.....


in reality these three things ruin the game in the modern era....spies, nukes and howies...

spies resteal tech, poison the city...can bribe.....etc...
nukes..well first to them wins.....nuff said
howies.....move and shoot on rail...hahaha

at least with other units...there is defense and ways to defend......or make preemptive strikes....


most don't like to play with nukes....its something i noticed... i guess they remember a few going off in a game aways back

i too agree that the GW shouldn't be used in duels with no city bribe....but then that makes STWA valubable...

i wonder if you could make the GW last longer ...or provide some sort of modern defense...or make the ET a defensive bonus ........its tall...it can spot **** coming ahead of time

	26-04-2002 18:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by markusf Pyramids are useless if you use republic in 2x. A republic player will always dominate.

1X or 2X, Pyramids helps turn it into a runaway.
Just because you have Pyramids doesn't mean you can't be in Republic, does it?

It's how your skanky friends used to screw people in League.
"Let's play until 1 A.D., power graph decides."
Pyramids built, power graph reflects mightily, another newbie bites the dust.

	26-04-2002 19:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I see more "No City Bribe" requests being made. Along with that is "No Great Wall", which I still fail to see how relates.

The person who builds GW is almost invincible, a realy killer in a duel right up to metallurgy.

	26-04-2002 22:03									#20
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I would like a game there diplos/spies only are allowed to etablish embassies, all other diplo/spies actions should be banned.

Especially unit bribe is VERY sick because the bribed unit can move twice in a round. It's very unrealistic too. An elephant for example represent a division of elephants and could not really be bribed. If bribing was an important issues in really war it should not be needed to have large armies to invade poor countries.

They bribe one unit that already have moved, move it again and destroy at least one more unit. Each turn they use a large number diplos in this way.

In some Civ 2 game I have played some players use diplos as the most important unit in wars.

-> they only produce diplos and no mil units. All mil units they need is btibed!

IT SUCKS!

	26-04-2002 22:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand 1X or 2X, Pyramids helps turn it into a runaway. Just because you have Pyramids doesn't mean you can't be in Republic, does it? It's how your skanky friends used to screw people in League. "Let's play until 1 A.D., power graph decides." Pyramids built, power graph reflects mightily, another newbie bites the dust.

All those league wins i had, i let others build HG and pyramids. I got either mikes or theo Most players never got the cities over size 8. when cities go from size 8 to 12 there is a huge impact on the PG. I won many PG games where i had half the cities of the second place player. Their cities where size 8 and mine where size 12...

	27-04-2002 01:59									#22
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"All those league wins i had, i let others build HG and pyramids."


Did I call you by name? No, I don't believe I did. Thank you very much.

	27-04-2002 02:28									#23
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quote: Originally posted by winzity I would like a game there diplos/spies only are allowed to etablish embassies, all other diplo/spies actions should be banned. If bribing was an important issues in really war it should not be needed to have large armies to invade poor countries. In some Civ 2 game I have played some players use diplos as the most important unit in wars. -> they only produce diplos and no mil units. All mil units they need is btibed! IT SUCKS!

Sorry mate, I believe we have recently seen a perfect example of just that happening: USofA invading Afghanistan! The basic of their succes has been bribing all those zelous brave 'fundamentalists'. And so proving how pure and fundamental these people are.
It is a pitty though that in Civ the reduction for re-bribing your units( as with re-bribing your cities) is not in effect.

	27-04-2002 03:37									#24
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Oh no. Not one of "those"!

	27-04-2002 23:26									#25
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If you want to post your political views... the OTF is the place to do it

What I hate is when somebody drops off line early... and all you think is that they are looking at the map... It must make the game easier

	29-04-2002 17:58									#26
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Even coming back, and seeing the number of cities and units bites.

	29-04-2002 20:05									#27
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Even coming back, and seeing the number of cities and units bites.

I agree... while I understand the need for that feature (allowing a new person to at least pick the AI that stands a chance) it provides too much info, and gives a person another reason to quit.

	29-04-2002 20:33									#28
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Yes, quite a few time, I'd see that one of my neighbors had a low unit to city ratio, and decide that it was time to start an offensive.

And on the other side, seeing a real high ratio and posponing one.

RAH

	29-04-2002 21:03									#29
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Cheating bastards....

From a realism standpoint, diplos are nonsense.

But then, so are LOTS of things, so we all deal with it one way or another.

I tend to be rather peaceful unless provoked, but that might be why I don't win that often.

	30-04-2002 06:46									#30
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Simult vs turn based is a big argument within the Australians. Deity has all sorts of objections to simult so we don't play it with him - but I love it.

I don't like unit bribe and I never play city bribe. Some of the Australians think unit bribe is okay so that's sometimes in.

We've been playing no wonders games lately - deity level 1x. Its a challenge.