26-04-2002 00:23									#31
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realitivity.... pi can be any number if you take it from the right angle. even (as the bible says) 3. i'm not a physics ace or anything, but i have some friends who speak nothing but physics-ese who try to make me smart.

	26-04-2002 00:23									#32
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I'm gonna invent a new type of computer that uses every digit (0-9) instead of just 1's and 0's . . . and then try and open Pi in Notepad, to see what happens.

	26-04-2002 00:23									#33
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orange be careful
as i said that particular string only seems special to you and us but in fact there is NOTHING particular about it
just like the number 123456789 may seem like a special number but try writing it in base 13 and tell me whats special about it
that string you mentionned will appear like any other one
theres nothing special about such a string apperaing if theres nothing more special infinetly afterwards

	26-04-2002 00:23									#34
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Just one thing about pi... Because of its nature, it's inevitable that an approximation of pi, when being calculated to infinite lengths, will seem to repeat itself - twice, thrice, three billion times, Graham's number times, all but infinitely. True? I assume there is a good reason to say that pi isn't a rational number... err... I forgot the point I was trying to get across .

	26-04-2002 00:24									#35
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I think the problem with Pi is that no one can tell you what numbers will appear in the pattern, until they pull out a pencil and some paper.

	26-04-2002 00:24									#36
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los alamos, and bell are working on that connorkimbro; quantum computers that truely understand numbers and mathematical problems.

	26-04-2002 00:25									#37
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111 (10) = 1101111 (2)

111 (2) = 7 (10)

	26-04-2002 00:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme orange be careful as i said that particular string only seems special to you and us but in fact there is NOTHING particular about it just like the number 123456789 may seem like a special number but try writing it in base 13 and tell me whats special about it that string you mentionned will appear like any other one theres nothing special about such a string apperaing if theres nothing more special infinetly afterwards

I'm not saying it 'won't' but I am saying that it's more likely for conner's phone number to appear than it is for 12345678987654321 (repeated a thousand times over) to occur because of the SIZE of the number and repatative nature of the integer.

	26-04-2002 00:25									#39
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what is graham's number? like avogadro's number? the american version of it?

	26-04-2002 00:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme actually mr baggins im not sure if there is one i recall reading something about this but i would check pi's decimals are pseudo random thats for sure I THINK its been proven than all irrationnal number's decimal expnasion must contain all finite string of numbers. let me get back on this

I read too that pi had the property that any finite string occurs somewhere.

I am however sure that not all irrationel numbers contains all strings. Remember that rationel numbers written as decimals repeat at some point (easy to see when you make the division). Take the number 0,1010010001... , which does not repeat itself and so is not rationel, ie it is irrational. But it does not contain the string "9".

	26-04-2002 00:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by LightEning Just one thing about pi... Because of its nature, it's inevitable that an approximation of pi, when being calculated to infinite lengths, will seem to repeat itself - twice, thrice, three billion times, Graham's number times, all but infinitely. True? I assume there is a good reason to say that pi isn't a rational number... err... I forgot the point I was trying to get across .

Infinite 'things' cannot repeat.

	26-04-2002 00:26									#42
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orange, it is only repetitive in a decimal code...

	26-04-2002 00:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Thue I read too that pi had the property that any finite string occurs somewhere. I am however sure that not all irrationel numbers contains all strings. Remember that rationel numbers written as decimals repeat at some point (easy to see when you make the division). Take the number 0,1010010001... , which does not repeat itself and so is not rationel, ie it is irrational. But it does not contain the string "9".

BINGO! My point exactly.

	26-04-2002 00:28									#44
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what a number would that be? now I see, you have just made up an irrational number... hmm...

	26-04-2002 00:28									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion orange, it is only repetitive in a decimal code...

irrelevant. If we say that it does not repeat in a decimal code, and have no reason to believe otherwise, why should we suddenly say that it not only can but does? And with an infinite number of combinations?

	26-04-2002 00:30									#46
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it's not irrelevant, each number has the same right to exist as another, will heißen every chain would be equally probable... while I don't know if that is the case, the fact it's 'repetitive' doesn't matter, nor does the fact it's a nice stair-up-stair-down of decimal numbers..

	26-04-2002 00:30									#47
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heres a reference

http://classes.yale.edu/math190a/Fr...Randomness.html

Similar arguments show that all finite sequences must occur somewhere (in fact, infinitely often) in an infinite random sequence. If any one is missing, we can use this missing sequence to describe the infinite sequence without listing all its entries.

Im not 100 % sure that applies to pi though because pi cannot be proven to be random
but I m pretty sure every string appear in pi too

	26-04-2002 00:30									#48
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what is graham's number?

	26-04-2002 00:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Thue I read too that pi had the property that any finite string occurs somewhere. I am however sure that not all irrationel numbers contains all strings. Remember that rationel numbers written as decimals repeat at some point (easy to see when you make the division). Take the number 0,1010010001... , which does not repeat itself and so is not rationel, ie it is irrational. But it does not contain the string "9".

randomness implies that all possibilities are equally likely; 0-9. A truely random number would have both random pattern and distribution of the digits 0-9. You are artificially limiting 'infinite patterns' to predictable distribution.

	26-04-2002 00:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion it's not irrelevant, each number has the same right to exist as another, will heißen every chain would be equally probable... while I don't know if that is the case, the fact it's 'repetitive' doesn't matter, nor does the fact it's a nice stair-up-stair-down of decimal numbers..

I can't think of one off the top of my head, but say I gave you a number that divides out to a hundred million (or some other large number, but not infinite amount of) decimal places and then ends.

Now, I ask you, what is more likely to occur in that number - a 7 digit string or a 20,000 digit string?

	26-04-2002 00:32									#51
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Baggins: I didn't claim that it would repeat infinitely - I either denied it or don't know English too well . That is, I mean that it would repeat the finite (!) amount of figures of the approximation that had been calculated that far - since pi contains all finite series of figures, it must also contain repetitions of a finite series of figures (i.e. 313 and 5431354). That is, it would seem to repeat, although it can't, of course, actually repeat.

Ecth: Graham's number is a bit like Avogadro's number, but... a few magnitudes bigger . And BTW, I'm a Finn - I don't care about capitalist American numbers .

	26-04-2002 00:32									#52
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WAit wait
it does not contain 9 because u are using binary !!
but it will contain all possible finite string made of 1 and 0
thats my point
and of course pi will repeat itself a billion time or graham's number's time but those are still finite
but not an infinite number of time

	26-04-2002 00:33									#53
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orange ure absolutly right
his phone number will appear more often than that long number
but the important fact is both will appear an infite times

	26-04-2002 00:34									#54
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but if pi contains my phone number, where in pi is it?

Last edited by Caesar the Great on 26-04-2002 at 00:39

	26-04-2002 00:35									#55
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LightEning>

are you from finland? I went on holiday to a town I recall sounding like 'peek- su -maki' I don't recall the exact spelling.

We actually were reported in the local paper... I guess they don't get too many visitors

	26-04-2002 00:35									#56
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and if u want a number which decimal's expansion goes on for a while but then stops just try something like:
(3^100)/(2^200)
but its still rationnal so not much we said here applies

	26-04-2002 00:36									#57
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Caesar there exists program or site that tell you the position of the first time a certain string of digits appear.

	26-04-2002 00:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme WAit wait it does not contain 9 because u are using binary !! but it will contain all possible finite string made of 1 and 0 thats my point and of course pi will repeat itself a billion time or graham's number's time but those are still finite but not an infinite number of time

If we assume that pi has infinite length, then the length of it is not a real number, hence pi couldn't repeat in itself.

	26-04-2002 00:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme orange ure absolutly right his phone number will appear more often than that long number but the important fact is both will appear an infite times

would you say the same about 10100100010000100000......?

	26-04-2002 00:38									#60
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Baggins: I assume you mean Pieksämäki... and no, I don't think it's a very popular place .

CtG: Get a program that calculates approximations of pi, give it your phone number, and let it match numbers. It's that easy .