26-04-2002 00:04									#1
	Does Pi contain my phone number. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm not big on mathmatics, so if this is like, an elementary question, please don't laugh at me TOO much.

It just occured to me that Pi, if it just keeps going without end and without repeating numbers, at SOME point, it should contain my phone number. Is this correct, or not correct?

I don't mean, is it POSSIBLE that it does. I mean, it would eventually HAVE to, right?

	26-04-2002 00:10									#2
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well...it's sketchy

Assuming an infinite number of variations and non-related patterns of numbers, one would assume that you would eventually see your phone number somewhere in there.

However, you could also have an infinite number of 1s, and never see your phone number.

I'd say yes, given the fact that the numbers (as far as I know) are completely unrelated and never repeat themselves.

	26-04-2002 00:10									#3
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if it is endless, then theoretically it should have every possible combination of numbers? that would also mean it contains a certain 16-digit number you tell me, or a 1000-digit number, at some point. that would appear unlikely...

	26-04-2002 00:11									#4
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Yeah, but it's not like 10 divided by 3 which gives you an infinite string of 3's. It's always different numbers, and never repeats a pattern.

	26-04-2002 00:11									#5
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like this: does pi (or e for that matter) at any point contain 1234567890987654321 and that repeated 1000 times? By your logic it has to... but I somewhat doubt that...

	26-04-2002 00:12									#6
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If your phone number is finite in length
then it is contained in Pi's decimals
actually this is true for any irrationnal number's decimals and any phone number of finite length (not just yours )
I even think there are some sites where you can input a string of digits and it looks where in the digits of pi it appears for the first time.
for 7 digits im not sure how efficient sucha site would be though ud have to look

	26-04-2002 00:13									#7
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given an infinite number of random combinations everything is represented. thats just the nature of infinity... provided that is that it really does have a real random nature, and not a pseudo random nature.

	26-04-2002 00:13									#8
	yes echtelion Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

to answer echtelion at same time your string of digit also is somewhere in pi's decimal
might take a while longer to find them though but it is there.

	26-04-2002 00:13									#9
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That's a good point.

I guess that the numbers ARE related, but in such a way that it never gets to something like 333333 (infinite) or 123123123123 (infinite) . . . but each number IS dependant somehow.

	26-04-2002 00:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion like this: does pi (or e for that matter) at any point contain 1234567890987654321 and that repeated 1000 times? By your logic it has to... but I somewhat doubt that...

Very good point, and the problem with that is that if it DID contain that string of numbers, there would be a pattern and as far as I know there are no patterns in the numbers of pi.

Connor - yeah, that's what I'm saying.

	26-04-2002 00:14									#11
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now the real question is... at some point in pi, does pi contain itself?

	26-04-2002 00:14									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion like this: does pi (or e for that matter) at any point contain 1234567890987654321 and that repeated 1000 times? By your logic it has to... but I somewhat doubt that...

Why wouldn't it? It's infinite. It's not just long, but infinite. If there's no discernible pattern in it, then every possible finite number combination will eventually have to come up. It just might take 10^50 or 10^5000 or 10^(10^5000)+ digits before you find your particular pattern.

	26-04-2002 00:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins given an infinite number of random combinations everything is represented. thats just the nature of infinity... provided that is that it really does have a real random nature, and not a pseudo random nature.

well if pi were a random number how would we be able to calculate it?

	26-04-2002 00:15									#14
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no, since infinity cannot be contained.

	26-04-2002 00:15									#15
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how would that be a proof for a pattern? it is just - accidentally - a chain of identical numbers over some time, and that is just as likely to occur as any other chain of numbers.

111111 and 346592 should be equally likely to appear.

	26-04-2002 00:15									#16
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mr baggins your conclusion is right but the reason is somewhat sketchy
the fun part here is that the decimals of pi are not random but pseudo random as u said because they can be calculated by an arethmetical process
as u said a random process would also contain all finite strings but pi is not such a process
it still does contain all strings though being an irrationnal number

	26-04-2002 00:15									#17
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ahhh, ok. so ANY finite string of numbers, even a string of numbers that repeats itself. say 1212121212121212 (to a thousand digits) . . . that's not repeating infinitely, so it doesn't break the rules. wierd.

	26-04-2002 00:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by LulThyme mr baggins your conclusion is right but the reason is somewhat sketchy the fun part here is that the decimals of pi are not random but pseudo random as u said because they can be calculated by an arethmetical process as u said a random process would also contain all finite strings but pi is not such a process it still does contain all strings though being an irrationnal number

From what I recall, there isn't a perfect mathematical proof. Am I wrong?

	26-04-2002 00:17									#19
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I didn't realize it, but my signature sort of applies to this discussion

	26-04-2002 00:18									#20
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yes it's weird. you could even say a repetition of the chain 123, repeated 1,000,000 times, would be contained by pi at some point... I think this is getting pretty surreal. are you guys sure?

	26-04-2002 00:18									#21
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actually mr baggins im not sure if there is one
i recall reading something about this but i would check
pi's decimals are pseudo random thats for sure
I THINK its been proven than all irrationnal number's decimal expnasion must contain all finite string of numbers.
let me get back on this

	26-04-2002 00:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Why wouldn't it? It's infinite. It's not just long, but infinite. If there's no discernible pattern in it, then every possible finite number combination will eventually have to come up. It just might take 10^50 or 10^5000 or 10^(10^5000)+ digits before you find your particular pattern.

just because it's infinite doesn't mean that a certain set of numbers MUST appear in it.

10/3 is infinite as well, but you'll never find a 6 in there.

Even if the numbers are completely random, to say that any set of numbers (whether a phone number or something else) isn't exactly accurate, though I do agree that it's possible and probable. However, I'd bet against Andy's number appearing anywhere in Pi because Pi is so random that that kind of pattern would not occur.

	26-04-2002 00:19									#23
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well pi is not only infinite it's also irrational to say the least

	26-04-2002 00:19									#24
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Oh, i'm so confused. . . .

	26-04-2002 00:19									#25
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now if it was also repetitive it would be a woman

	26-04-2002 00:20									#26
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Incidentally, while pi's cool, e just sucks. I hate it. Stupid e.

Anyway, one of more interesting things I've heard here was that pi should be banned. Why? Because it's infinite string of numbers. Thus, with proper methods, you could get all sorts of information from there - absolute proof of existence of God, absolute proof of non-existence of God, stuff like that. However, you'll also get manuals on how to cook of hallucinogens and child porn pictures. Thus, pi contains so much illegal stuff it just *must* be banned. There's no other alternative. And same goes for that sucky e, too. Goddamn e.

	26-04-2002 00:21									#27
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Dammit, look what i started. There's a reason i havn't studied math since 11th grade high school lol

	26-04-2002 00:21									#28
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Definetly sure
12121212 only looks sorta orderly becaues we are in decimal base
in any base or any other notation this particular range wouldnt look weird
suppose we took another irrational constant in decimal which started this way3.1111111112452342
and then would be weird the rest
we would say it starts orderly but if you write it in any other base no order is discernible
so the FINITE repetion of digits or pattern doesnt really mean anything it is not essential and is based more on what we think is order while any infinite repetion means something about the number (in this case means its rationnal)

	26-04-2002 00:21									#29
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yes Stefu, of course it does contain all that (like a chain of numbers that would be, if separated into 3-digit numbers and those taken as ASCII codes, the plan for an atomic bomb), but noone knows how to find it so that's bull

	26-04-2002 00:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by orange just because it's infinite doesn't mean that a certain set of numbers MUST appear in it. 10/3 is infinite as well, but you'll never find a 6 in there. Even if the numbers are completely random, to say that any set of numbers (whether a phone number or something else) isn't exactly accurate, though I do agree that it's possible and probable. However, I'd bet against Andy's number appearing anywhere in Pi because Pi is so random that that kind of pattern would not occur.

10/3 has a simple mathematical proof giving us 3 1/3. Its just that decimals are unable to rationally define it, completely.